Skeptic Project

If you're so sure, take it up with Dunning. Its been suggested more than once in this thread. You look like an anti-fast food zealot in this thread and its pretty hilarious.

No such thing as a skeptical idealist.

Ed, I'm not going to get sucked into your nutbar anti-McDonalds rhetoric war. I've learned my lesson from trying to debate with your retarded ass before. I'm not going to waste my time while you repeat yourself for another five pages and expect it to become magically true.

Take it up with Dunning you fucking whackjob.

@Ed simply making up numbers does not count as evidence either.

OH COME ON! REALLY? ARE YOU SERIOUS? Your just going to try and marginalize if not outright ignore that McDonald's Hamburgers are nutritional? The burden of proof is not on me. I didn't make up numbers and claim they proved anything despite not being based on data.

McDonalds is high fat, no one disagrees with that, apparently not even Dunning. Are you seriously suggesting otherwise? I honestly think you're disagreeing with me for the sake of it.

Dunning agreed that certain products are high in fat. I actually asked you to define high fat; instead you used the popularity fallacy by claiming "everyone agrees that McDonalds is high in fat, so why are you questioning it?" If your definition of high fat is "everyone thinks it is", then we don't have very far to go with this discussion.

I'm going to define high fat foods as "exceeding 33% of your DVA", since that would mean you are going over your DVA after three meals. I'll define high fat diets as "exceeding 100% of your DVA throughout the course of a typical day".

Going by these definitions, a cheeseburger at McDonalds is not a high fat food; and it would take eating more than 3 of them a day to describe your diet as "high fat".

I have to wonder what meal plan you would suggest could be devised around McDonalds that would NOT max out any of your RDA's (in bad stuff).

Each of these foods contains less than 33% of all DVAs (not a comprehensive list):

Breakfast:

One Sausage McMuffin
One Hotcake
One Hash brown
One Fruit and Maple Oatmeal
Orange Juice

Lunch:

One cheeseburger
One Filet-O-Fish
One Premium Crispy Chicken Ranch BLT Sandwich
One Angus Mushroom & Swiss Snack Wrap
One Snack Size Fruit & Walnut Salad
Orange Juice

Dinner:

One Premium Caesar Salad (without chicken)
One Big N' Tasty
One Medium French Fries
One 1% Low Fat Milk Jug
One Fruit 'n Yogurt Parfait (7 oz)

Eating all of these foods at every meal probably exceeds some DVAs, but I'm not interested in tallying up individual numbers. The fact is that each of these foods can be considered not "high fat foods" according to my definition. Depending on how you combine them, you can create a non-"high fat diet".

It was careless of you to ramble on about how high fat certain products on McDonalds' menu is considering we already decided to ignore them (mainly because Dunning already admitted to their high salt and fat). There are plenty of options on the McDonalds menu that are not "high fat" according to my definition.

I showed you the journal articles, do you need more evidence high salt and high fat diets are bad? Do you need more evidence that McDonalds is NOT considered nutritious and well balanced?

Again, you have yet to define high fat. Certainly, eating 4 cheeseburgers every day is high fat and likely causes long term health problems. Thankfully, I showed you options above that are not high fat foods and can be combined to create a low fat diet.

Lets put it this way, mainstream science disagrees with what you're suggesting. Why is that?

Because you straw man'd me.

@Ed You drew up some numbers based on no data, set up circumstances to prove a point also based on no data, that did not take into account any form of variables as you put it, that don't even address the issue. Then you "declared victory". You didn't present any evidence of your point at all. You utterly failed to address my point.

I made a reply to one of your earlier comments but it got eaten by the internet. I will get back to it later.

Aaron,

Dunning agreed that certain products are high in fat. I actually asked you to define high fat; instead you used the popularity fallacy by claiming "everyone agrees that McDonalds is high in fat, so why are you questioning it?" If your definition of high fat is "everyone thinks it is", then we don't have very far to go with this discussion.

I posted that because I was shocked you're actually suggesting McDonalds burgers and fries (the actual topic of the conversation) ARE NOT high in fat.

I don't really know why you think I have to do all the work, you're acting like a truther that keeps saying they "just want to ask questions". You are trying to challenge eveyrthing we know about nutrition, yet apparently its me thats needs to bow to your every demand.

I, not being an expert, honestly don't really know just how much salt or fat needs to be in a food for nutritionists to classify it as a high fat/high salt food, but lets look at how experts use the term shall we? Its clear that whatever definition they use fast food, such as McDonalds, is covered by the definition of high fat.

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/nutrition/a/high_fat_foods.htm</p>

It shouldn't be a surprise that many high-fat foods are fast foods.

In fact, 33% of the USDA's top 100 high-fat foods are fast foods. Some include:

* Egg and sausage biscuits
* Double meat hamburgers and cheeseburgers
* Tacos
* Chicken fillet sandwiches
* French fries
* Milk shakes
* Fish sandwich with cheese
* Croissant, with egg, cheese, and bacon
* Tuna salad submarine sandwich
* French toast sticks
* Chicken pieces (fried nuggets or strips)
* Nachos
* Corndogs
* Enchiladas
* Cold cuts submarine sandwich
* Onion rings

Of course, the amount of fat and calories your kids consume when they sit down to fast food is going to depend on the serving sizes they are eating. For example, a 12 oz Vanilla Triple Thick Shake at McDonald's has 10g of fat (15% Daily Value*) and 420 calories. On the other hand, a 32 oz version has 26g of fat (41% Daily Value) and 1110 calories, which is almost half the fat and two-thirds of the calories that most older children need all day long.

Similarly, a small order of french fries at McDonald's has 13g of fat (20% Daily Value) and 250 calories. If you up-size that to a large order, you will increase the fat to 30g (47% Daily Value) and calories to 570.

How about we look at the government recommendations on fast food consumption, written by:

David C. Dugdale, III, MD, Professor of Medicine, Division of General Medicine, Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine. Also reviewed by David Zieve, MD, MHA, Medical Director, A.D.A.M., Inc.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002462.htm</p>

Fast foods are quick, reasonably priced, and readily available alternatives to home cooking. While convenient and inexpensive for a busy lifestyle, fast foods are typically high in calories, fat, saturated fat, sugar, and salt.

...in order to maintain a healthy diet, it is necessary to choose fast foods carefully.

...Make better choices when eating at fast food restaurants. In general eat at places that offer a variety of salads, soups, and vegetables.

Choose smaller-sized servings. Consider splitting some fast food items to reduce the amount of calories and fat. Ask for a "doggy bag." or simply leave the excess on your plate.

To help supplement and balance a fast food meal, make nutritious options such as fresh fruits, vegetables, and yogurt available as snacks.

...
Consider these general tips:

PIZZA

Ask for less cheese, and choose low-fat toppings such as onions, mushrooms, green peppers, tomatoes, and other vegetables.

SANDWICHES

Healthier choices include regular or junior-size lean roast beef, turkey, or chicken breast, or lean ham. Extras, such as, bacon, cheese, or mayo will increase the fat and calories of the item. Select whole-grain breads over high-fat croissants or biscuits.

HAMBURGERS

A single, plain meat patty without the cheese and sauces is the best choice. Ask for extra lettuce, tomatoes, and onions. Limit your intake of french fries.

MEAT, CHICKEN, AND FISH

Look for items that are roasted, grilled, baked, or broiled. Avoid meats that are breaded or fried. Ask for heavy sauces, such as gravy, on the side. Better still, avoid heavy sauces and dressings altogether.

SALADS

High-fat food items such as dressing, bacon bits, and shredded cheese add fat and calories. Choose lettuce and assorted vegetables to make up the majority of your salad. Select low-fat or fat-free salad dressings, vinegar, or lemon juice when available. Ask for the salad dressing on the side.

Pay attention to how they recommend making the fast food healthier and more well balanced. You really think they would agree that McDonalds cheese burger on its own its well balanced in every food group and nutritious?

Are you really trying to argue that McDonalds burgers are not high fat? That they are well balanced in every food group? That they are nutritions? That it could be healthy to have a diet JUST of McDonalds high fat high salt burger meals? Your claims have gotten more and more ridiculous as time's gone on so I'm not really sure what it is anymore.

But this is not what every legitimate nutritionist is saying, this is not what the research shows. Why do you want to disagree with them? All because of this Dunning article?

I told you that I am not an expert and that I can only go on what is readily available on the internet, at google scholar and websites like the one above written by experts. If this is not enough for you then by all means please contact some legitimate nutritionists doing research in this field and ask them questions about your theory on McDonalds and health. Will you do that or keep just asking questions here?

Eating all of these foods at every meal probably exceeds some DVAs, but I'm not interested in tallying up individual numbers.

Wait a second, so are you going back on your earlier claim where you seemed to say that its not unhealthy so long as you dont exceed the RDA in a single meal? Which is silly btw since RDA is about recommended DAILY allowance not per meal values.

But whatever... in your meal plan, why do you include:

One Fruit and Maple Oatmeal
One Snack Size Fruit & Walnut Salad
Orange Juice
One Premium Caesar Salad (without chicken)
One 1% Low Fat Milk Jug
One Fruit 'n Yogurt Parfait (7 oz)

No one is talking about these foods being bad for you with the possible exception of the last one being higher in sugars.

I already said before that no one talks about fat kids chomping down 10 salads and topping it off with a packet of apple slices before chugging down some orange juice. That is not the problem films like Super Size Me were addressing and that is not the diet people who are concerned with obesity in America are concerned about. You keep accusing me of strawmen, yet you're trying to introduce this argument? Come on...

The fact is that each of these foods can be considered not "high fat foods" according to my definition. Depending on how you combine them, you can create a non-"high fat diet".

Because you made up your own definition, yes, good argument there. Can you find a nutritionist (or related expert) that says McDonalds only diet is healthy? Can you find one that says that McDonalds burgers are not high fat or high salt? You wont, because its nonsense. Either give it up or start sending emails.

It was careless of you to ramble on about how high fat certain products on McDonalds' menu is considering we already decided to ignore them (mainly because Dunning already admitted to their high salt and fat).

You might have decided to ignore them but I didn't.

The Cheeseburger is actually even more unhealthy per gram in terms of saturated fat and salt content than the Big Mac, check the figures yourself!

So you just accepted the Big Mac is high fat, right? Therefore the cheeseburger has to be even worse, right?

I also don't know if you decided to give up defending Dunning, but remember when he said eating 3 Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese burgers... "amounts to a good, healthy, slim 2,200 calorie diet for an adult". You agree with that? Just how does he justify saying "good, healthy" when describing eating 3 Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese burgers? That means you've FAR FAR exceeded your RDA in salt and saturated fats! Feel free just just say you'll stop defending this point so I know to forget about it from now on.

There are plenty of options on the McDonalds menu that are not "high fat" according to my definition.

I've already said this before, but maybe constant repetition is the key.

We aren't talking about salads, oats, orange juice, low fat milk, packets of fruit or carrot slices. When people talk about fast food, this is not what they refer to.

If you want a REAL example of a strawman, this is one and its yours and unlike your accusations against my arguments its actually real. I never said the entire McDonalds menu is unhealthy, never even implied it and in fact I've made that abundantly clear what Im referring to in just about every single post.

Lets put it this way, mainstream science disagrees with what you're suggesting. Why is that?

Because you straw man'd me.

I have to wonder if you keep repeating "strawman" because you don't know what it means, or because think saying strawman is a good response when you have nothing better to say.

There is no strawman here, you are making claims that I am telling you go against the scientific literature and mainstream scientific opinion in the matter. I have given you many experts examples now which back me up and are completely contrary to your assertions about the healthiness of McDonalds. When will you do the same? Or do you just want to keep making up your own definitions and your own understanding of nutrition to base your arguments around?

@Kepp Hi-5! lol.

@Ed Well, I wouldn't waste too much time on it. Your data is going to be irrelevant. McDonald's Hamburger are very healthy. And it's very easy to manipulate the data and create false Mikey D's are unhealthy bubbles.

I don't have to prove anything or show you anything, You are the one who claimed that McDonald's hamburgers was not nutritional not me.

We were referring to cheeseburgers specifically. Most of the other burgers are very high in fat and sodium. The research suggests that foods high in fat and sodium, such as those other burgers, are unhealthy. I don't disagree with that. I do disagree that the cheeseburger is high in fat and sodium.

As I told you in my last post that you obviously ignored AGAIN:

PER GRAM the McDonalds cheese burger has EVEN MORE saturated fat and salt content than the Big Mac, which you presumably consider to be high in fat and salt.

Why do you keep ignoring me?

No, I'm not going back on my word. If I were to eat every single item I listed, I would exceed DVAs. If I were to create a meal plan using a combination of those meals, I can conceivably create a diet that does not exceed DVAs.

And I can eat a snack size Mars bar and a mini baby bell for lunch and I won't exceed my RDA either, so what?

You did not specify that it had to include certain foods.

See this is why you are pissing me off to no end Aaron., We have all been talking for pages and pages about cheeseburgers and fries, in fact that is the entire topic. Even Dunning doesn't talk about the oats and fruit chunks they sell. Quite rightly he knows this is about the fries and burgers that people consider bad. I have even said various times that it doesn't matter McDonalds has introduced healthy options like salad and apple slices.

Stop being disingenuous and follow the argument. This is the kind of nonsense that makes me overly obsessed with how I word things, unless I get it exactly right some pratt will take it out of context.

again, you're using the word McDonalds and assuming I know exactly what you mean by it.

Want me to post all the times I said specifically what foods I was referring to? Not much point I know, you'll only ignore it. I do wonder why you set up such a silly strawman, surely you'd know I'd come back and repeat the fact that I don't care about salads and fruit chunks. What a waste of time.

Instead of explicitly stating "Mcdonalds' burgers and fries", you simply said "Mcdonalds." I answered your question.

I didn't have to because that was the topic from the start and I had clarified many times before. You took that one line completely out of context, even in the context of the post itself! Stop trying to be smart.

Bottom line: Many of McDonalds' products are high in fat and sodium. Many of their products are not.

According to you the cheeseburger is not and according to you Dunning is not wrong.

Eating some combination of McDonalds' products can be a healthy diet. That does not include those that are high in fat and sodium.

Which includes the cheeseburger.

Products like the cheeseburger, based on how I defined high fat and regardless of per gram amount, is not high in fat. If a nutritionist disagrees with my definition, then fine./

Who cares how YOU define it? What relevance does that have to anything? I can define lard to be pretty healthy, but it doesn't make it so.

Bottom line? Dunning is wrong about the healthiness of McDonalds, wrong that a cheeseburger
is nutritious, well balanced in every food group and that eating 3 Double Quaterpounders and Cheese "amounts to a good, healthy, slim 2,200 calorie diet for an adult".

You defend this? You are wrong.

You have ignored all the relevant questions and points in this discussion and as far as I recall accepted none of your errors you stated as if it was fact like ones such as claiming that "well balanced" and 'nutritious" need not refer to health, ignored specific points making me constantly repeat myself, persistently danced around the issues and now tried to rely on taking me out of context.

I don't know whats up with you, but I have no idea why you want to defend such ridiculous myths about nutrition and why you want to do so in such a disingenuous manor.

Gentlemen, BEHOLD...

Chicken quesadillas with the mild sauce.

@Ed I have already explained this three times. It is healthy. You tried to dismiss my point about how McDonald's hamburgers are nutritional. You tried to say it is unhealthy.

It's not an attack on you it's an attempt to help you see the point I am trying to make which is that it is obvious your "agenda" when it comes to nutrition is different then mine. Mine including a great deal more care for humanity as a whole.

You didn't show me anything. You made some numbers up. I don't have to provide evidence. It's pretty clear that McDonald's hamburgers are healthy, and such things as "Super Size me" and Ed have a agenda that must me.

The proof of everything I claimed as far as the positive effects of a McDonald's hamburger can be found in pictures in this thread of the Mikey D's hamburger as you can clearly see the onions, lettuce, tomatoes, and pickle in it. Get back to me when you have. I am not going to type out all of that nor should I have to. Honestly I was hoping you were being rhetorical and it astounds me that you could actually not be aware of the nutritional value of a Mikey D's hamburger.

Tell you what. I am going to start feeding you poop. I will agree to pay a fee for it. (By the way, I don't think this is going to solve the problems your going to have when I get poop in your mouth.). Now which is more healthier poop or a McDonald's hamburger. ..

@Ed I have already explained this three times. It is healthy. You tried to dismiss my point about how McDonald's hamburgers are nutritional. You tried to say it is unhealthy.

You keep TELLING me its healthy, your insistence that you are right is not an argument.

it is obvious your "agenda" when it comes to nutrition is different then mine. Mine including a great deal more care for humanity as a whole.

What agenda do I have Bill? What about the nutritionists and scientists I referenced? Why cant they see what you seem to think is so obvious? What's THEIR agenda? Careful, you wouldnt want to start sounding like a conspiracy theorist.

You didn't show me anything. You made some numbers up.

Still no example of what numbers you're talking about.

If I accused you of making stuff up, don't you think I should have to tell you what that stuff was?

you can clearly see the onions, lettuce, tomatoes, and pickle in it. Get back to me when you have.

Yes I've seen it and Ive replied to this claim a hundred times and many times specifically to you, why do you keep ignoring my response? You don't understand how nutrition works Bill.

Now which is more healthier poop or a McDonald's hamburger. ..

HAHAHAHAH you are insane. By that logic no foods are ever unhealthy because "poop" is always more unhealthy.

@Bill:

I suggest you look at the material I just suggested

What material? Your picture of a cheeseburger? Come on... I already replied to that, you can't just keep making the same argument and ignoring mine. If there's a problem with my reasoning, please respond to that reasoning.

I suggest you take a look at the sources I provided, all the experts telling you high fat high salt fast foods like McDonalds is unhealthy including peer reviwed journal articles. You are voicing a conspiracy theory in the scientific community to suppress the healthiness of McDonalds. How ironic.

If McDonald's hamburgers are unhealthy you should of provided those studies in the first place.

I did, I provided journal articles that discuss how bad high fat high salt fast foods are and how negligible nutrition they provide. I also provided government recommendations written by experts that suggest that if one must eat fast foods how to make them healthier, why do you ignore that?

I am an "Official" spokesman for the conspiracy science site for a reason.

LOlwut?

There is no such thing as an official spokesman for CS, you're delusional.

If anything Muertos could be called an official spokesman as he is the only one (that I know of besides Edward) who has written for it. You may find it interesting btw that I am set up to also write articles for CS I just don't, I can also add to the quote mine section if I want to. I am also listed under the admins of the Conspiracy Science Facebook group though I've never used that power.

As it is obviously despicable

Is there a language barrier? Is English your first language? That's a serious question, because otherwise I see no excuse for how incoherent and insane you sound.

As it is absolutely irrational that you should think that what I mentioned above is not clear that McDonald's hamburger's are nutritional.

Why do no experts agree with you? I challenge you to find a single expert or legitimate source anywhere that says McDonalds are healthy. I've already provided lots of references and peer reviewed articles that support my claims. Will you do the same or just keep insisting you're right and that its just so obvious? If its so obvious why can you find no evidence for it?

You claimed I was dishonest and made up numbers, for the nth time, what numbers did I make up? Incidentally if anyone else knows what Bill is on about could they answer this question? Because apparently its unfair to Bill to ask him tell me exactly where he thinks my error is. I'm pretty sure if I said Dunning of Skeptoid made up data I should have to say exactly what data I'm talking about.

I don't believable Bill is trolling, Matt.

Also, you need to learn the difference between trolling and actually believing the stuff you say.

@Ed I'm not trolling your just not admitting when your wrong.

You came here with the grandiose claim that you had all the data required to state that McDonald's Hamburgers are not healthy. Obviously you have failed at that it's not my job to do the research for you.

My advice to you would be not to claim you can emphatically prove something as in this case that McDonald's Hamburgers are not healthy without actually knowing what your talking about.

No I didn't just rely on emotional responses. In fact I didn't make any. His numbers were made up that he just put together himself citing no actual statistics.

I also pointed out that he cannot make up numbers based on any data to support his agenda on fast food places being unhealthy because no such data exists yet.

If you don't like the debate, don't participate.

Secondly, my point about the fact that Ed is claiming the reason he feels the way he does is solely because he has invested a lot of time in it. That Ed is arguing completely from an emotional attachment to his position. However much time he has spent on his position is not relevant. Only the validity or lack there of his points.

There is a great deal more to it then that Ed. There are some statistics that back what we say. Their are a few people in this thread that site a lot of it in the material you should aquaint yourself with before you start making statements like "I have emphatic proof that your wrong".