Skeptic Project

http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/promotions/oatmeal.html

Aaron,

A quick reply for now. If you want to talk about definitions then please find a use of the term nutritious like you are using it. Please find use of the term "well balanced" to where it doesn't refer to health. Like it or not "nutritious" refers to health, "well balanced" refers to health.

I asked for where people used the words the way you used them, can you show that or not?

You claimed that "well balanced" does not have to refer to health and that saying something is "nutritious" doesn't refer to health, quite matter of factly. Yet, in every instance I find these words that IS how they are used. So I ask the obvious question then, where do people use the word in the context that you're trying to suggest Dunning used it and so therefore valid?

And btw for the nth time "balanced" still doesnt describe the cheeseburger because "balance" in nutrition actually MEANS SOMETHING.

PS: I also gotta ask, where are you getting all this stuff from? You even say on the previous page that "many would say potatoes aren't even a vegetable", who is many? EVERYWHERE I have seen says its a root vegetable. I mean seriously, do you just make this stuff out of nothing or are you reading this all on some obscure website somewhere?

You sure are jumping through some amazing hoops to argue this case man.

EDIT: And while I'm here you also said

"I wouldn't consider french fries to be unhealthy so long as the daily recommended values are low. However, I'd never eat them because there are healthier choices."

So I can eat Krispy Kreme filled doughnuts and Mars bars and thats not unhealthy food so long as I don't surpass my RDA? Both doughnuts and Mars bars contain nutrients too FYI.

No doubt you'll claim strawman again, but if so please show the demonstrable difference. I asked you this last time and you keep ignoring it.

You seem to confuse the difference between an unhealthy lifestle and diet vs an unhealthy food. There is a difference. Battered Mars Bars (a thing in some UK fish and chip shops) is pretty damn unhealthy, but it isn't going to have an adverse affect on your health if you eat one once and a while. But its still an unhealthy food, get it?

EDIT 2: And once again no one cares about the salads and fruit and oats available at McDonalds. When they say kids are eating too much fast food these days they arent talking about fat kids chomping down 5 salads and topping it off with a a packet of apple slices. Salt content in the McDonalds salads is the only criticism I have seen. Also the entire point of the thread is referring to burgers; cheeseburgers and Big Macs as the case studies that are named. So why bring up a few additions to the McDonalds menu?

So I can eat Krispy Kreme filled doughnuts and Mars bars and thats not unhealthy food so long as I don't surpass my RDA? Both doughnuts and Mars bars contain nutrients too FYI.

No doubt you'll claim strawman again, but if so please show the demonstrable difference. I asked you this last time and you keep ignoring it.

No, it's not a straw man because I completely agree. As long as you don't eat more than the daily recommended value, Krispy Kremes and Mars bars are not unhealthy as per the continuum I developed.

Again, I wouldn't eat them. But they would fill me up if there was nothing else.

Krispy Kremes aren't necessarily an unhealthy food. An unhealthy lifestyle would be one where people eat enough Krispy Kremes to exceed their daily values.

is that a regular cheeseburger

That's a double cheese burger, and it looks very healthy from observation. I can clearly see the pickles, tomatoes, ketchup, and onions which of course are vegetables except tomato which is a fruit and we all know vegetables/fruits are good for you. So Ed how are you going to argue that vegetables/fruit are bad for you?

@Aaron it has tomato paste in it.

@Aaron yeah I think it's considered a fruit. Corrected it above.

Ed, let's say I admit that Dunning's use of "nutritious" and "well balanced" was wrong.

What's your point? Is his argument no longer good?

Exactly, its no good.

Look at the entire cheeseburger section Im referring to. Its utterly meaningless. It is not "well balanced" in any way shape or form and its not "nutritious". You claimed "nutritious" can simply mean it has some stuff in it that we know is good for you, like protein or calcium and this is a perfectly acceptable use of the word "nutritious" and you also suggested that "well balanced" need not refer to health.

Yet, the fact is that "well balanced meal" and "nutritious" does refer to health. When he says "balanced" it literally is meaningles. When he says it fills all four food groups, its laughable.

His argument goes all over the place.

First he quite rightly explains that Super Size Me overstates how bad McDonalds is by eating huge portions. OK, good job. But he seems to also have a problem with people "bashing" fast food in general so also goes on to try to make another claim - McDonalds is nutritious and well balanced. That is very, very different.

He refers to other documentaries like "Me and Mickey D" where a guy ate normal portion sizes and did not suffer such ill affects as that shown in Super Size Me. So I looked up Me and Mickey D.

Here's a blog post I found on the film:

http://brooklynmonk.wordpress.com/2007/11/04/me-and-mickey-d-super-size-me-in-reverse/</p>

One of the experts, Dr. M Rayner Dickey, said, “We are intended to eat a variety of foods.” Two implications here are, one, it’s not natural for human beings to abstain from eating meat or some other food group. At the same time, it is also unnatural for us to eat only one food group. And by implication, it is unhealthy to eat exclusively Big Macs. But there is no reason why Big Macs can’t be part of your diet.

...

Eating a lot of healthy green vegetables and fruits is a good idea for all of us. But, once again, switching to a single food group is contrary to our nature.

Dunning claimed that the cheeseburger is a "well balanced" meal. Yet, he just quoted a documentary earlier where it is acknowledged by one of the experts that McDonalds is not a well balanced meal. That it is unhealthy to just eat McDonalds. IE. If the cheeseburger was "well balanced" then this would not be relevant.

Its also worth pointing out that this person, like so many, seems to have the simplistic understanding that weight GAIN is unhealthy, while weight LOSS is healthy. But there is more to health and nutrition than just weight gain.

Another one of his sources is related to this story:
http://castle.eiu.edu/~pubaff/headline/2005/1017200590.php

Again, this is talking mainly about weight gain. It also does not refer to McDonalds as healthy, instead it says they can indeed be included in a healthy diet, that moderation is the key and that there are healthy alternatives (but most of the time aren't chosen).

Here's an interesting quote however that makes my mind boggle as to how Dunning thought Painter helped his case:

As Painter points out in the film, a 32-ounce McDonald’s milkshake packs a whopping 1,110 calories. It’s hard to find a bag of potato chips with just one serving in it. And in other countries, a 6-ounce soft drink is the norm, not the United States’ 12-ounce cans, 20-ounce bottles and 32-ounce mega cups.

The only thing that’s going to make a difference is if consumers change their purchasing habits, Painter said.

They’re getting some help from some restaurants. For example, McHugh’s Double Drive-Thru in Coles County offers value meals in both medium and large sizes.

“That’s the direction we want to go,” Painter said of the fast-food industry. “People are going to eat fast food anyway. They just need to do it in moderation.”

So...McDonalds food is not as bad as Super Size Me makes out, but he isn't saying that McDonalds is a well balanced nutritious meal, in fact he most certainly is not saying that at all. What he is saying is that you must LIMIT your intake of such foods and eat a balanced diet and you'll be fine. It seemed mainly concerned with weight too which as I said is relevant but at a certain point not necessarily an indicator of health.

Dunning seems to really want to not just claim that Super Size Me was a bit misleading but wants to try and justify McDonalds as a healthy well balanced meal. Even after the insanely stupid claim about the cheeseburger being well balanced and nutritionally rich in every nutrient where adding the burger cheese makes it even better, he also says...

Three [Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese], which is more than anyone reasonably eats, still amounts to a good, healthy, slim 2,200 calorie diet for an adult.

If he thinks Spurlock was misleading he is at least just as misleading arguing the opposite!

So here he is continuing to justify this idea that McDonalds is nutritious and healthy. You're meant to eat a "well balanced" diet, in nutrition well balanced does not mean McDonalds Big Mac or a cheeseburger.

Eating 3 Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese a day is not at all a "good, healthy, slim" diet as he claims. Nutrition means more than just "have I eaten enough calories?". I wonder just how long does Dunning think you can keep up this Double Quarter Pounder and Cheese diet that he seems to think are so healthy!

So after trying to make the case that these burgers are actually quite healthy after all, he tries to deal with some obvious criticisms of that idea.

So first he talks about fat content. He acknowledges that a Big Mac contains 10g of saturated fat MORE than the RDA. He then tries to justify that by saying...

The Center for Disease Control and the World Health Organization recommend that you keep your saturated fat intake under 7% of your daily caloric intake, and the Big Mac fulfills half of that. So, in short, two Big Macs a day maxes out your recommended safe levels of saturated fat.

So he says that only two Big Macs max out your recommended safe levels? Is that not concerning? Apparently he seems to think this is actually a good thing, rather than an at least slightly off putting observation.

Here's two thoughts I had on this section:

1. Don't forget the fries, add on 2.5 grams of saturated fat for Medium fries and 3.5 for large.

2. He JUST described to us that 3 Double Quarter Pounder with Cheeseburgers a day "amounts to a good, healthy, slim 2,200 calorie diet for an adult."

So 2 Big Macs at 20g of saturated fat is over our recommended safe levels of saturated fat. Well guess how much saturated fat is in 3 Double Quarter Pounder with Cheeseburgers? Just ONE of these burgers has 19grams of saturated fat, add some chips and maybe something else you might want to eat that day and you're already over your recommended safe levels for saturated fat!

So eating 3 of them gives you a whopping 57 grams of saturated fat that Dunning previously described as.. "amounts to a good, healthy, slim 2,200 calorie diet for an adult".

WTF!? is the appropriate response.

But before telling us that McDonalds burgers are both extremely high, even potentially dangerously high, in saturated fat and that eating lots of them a day can be pretty healthy and that the burgers are well balanced and nutritionally rich... he explained the salt problem:

Big Mac, delivers 1040mg of sodium, about 2/3 of your daily ideal. Not a problem by itself, but don't eat three of them.

That is true! Don't eat three of them, it can be part of a balanced diet.

OK, great... but wait...

He just told us that eating 3 Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese burgers a day "amounts to a good, healthy, slim 2,200 calorie diet for an adult" and that their cheeseburger is "well balanced" containing "just about every nutrient" and even contains all four food groups. The Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese has 1380mg of salt compared with the Big Mac's 1040mg, so how can eating 3 of them ever be described as "good, healthy, slim 2,200 calorie diet for an adult". 3 Double QP and Cheese is a massive 4140mg of salt!

Its completely bonkers! He both describes the food as healthy, well balanced, rich in just about every nutrient but then goes on to explain that its EXTREMELY high in saturated fats and salt. That eating one Big Mac is already 2/3 of your RDA and eating two maxes out our recommended safe levels of saturated fats! But the most amazing part for me is he seems to use the fact that eating one doesn't max your RDA in saturated fat and salt as some kind of plus point for the case he previously made that its all well balanced, nutritionally rich food, where eating 3 Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese burgers a day is "good, healthy" diet.

When he points out that McDonalds no longer use transfat oil that is indeed correct.

Evidence for my claim that many don't consider potato a vegetable:

http://apricot.wordpress.com/2006/08/22/the-potato-is-not-a-vegetable-it-is-a-tuber/</p>

You evidently don't really understand what you're reading.

The discussion is not about whether a potato is a vegetable, it is a vegetable. Only ignorant people who don't know what a vegetable ask if its a vegetable or not. You can find people asking all kinds of stupid question on the internet. The point is whether it can be considered a part of your "five a day" vegetables. So, whether it is on par with broccoli, peas, beans, spinach, carrots etc.

I was one the one that told YOU that many people think white potato (not the case with sweet potato) is often assumed to be healthy because its a vegetable and therefore they think chips counts because obviously thats potato. That is what those links you posted are talking about. The point is it is not nutritionally rich enough to be considered apart of the recommended daily intake OF vegetable's, that is what everyone is talking about.

And I also said before that even a vegetable as nutritionally rich like broccoli its not necessarily healthy if you've battered it and deep fried it. Thats because you have to look at more than just "does it have protein in it? does it have calcium in it?. A Mars bar has calcium in it, but it isn't healthy.

Yesterday, a Health Department spokesman said: 'It was completely clear that the minister was just explaining why potatoes are not called vegetables in relation to the healthy eating portions schemes we have.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-204299/Spuds-rejected-vegetable.html#ixzz1CTmVVLQq</p>

You quote things that obviously you didn't read and understand like this page:

"POTATOES = STARCH, NOT VEGETABLE"
http://bigteaparty.com/potatoes-starch-not-vegetable/</p>

Read a little further and it says... "When planning meals think of potatoes as a starch — like bread or pasta – not a vegetable. OK?"... and why? Because white potato is so nutritionally void its best not to think that it counts in the same league as broccoli, carrots, peas, spinach etc.

Evidence for potatoes, though considered a vegetable, not being considered a serving of vegetables:

[snipped NHS quote]

Please read my posts. This is exactly what I said.

Since potatoes do not count as a serving of vegetables, why are you talking about french fries being considered one?

Because as I keep trying to explain to you, the idea that the French fry is potato and therefore a portion of vegetables is JUST AS IGNORANT as thinking that the cheeseburger is filling all four foodgroups because it has white bread (grain) and pickle and onion (so therefore vegetables) so therefore well balanced and nutritious.

Read that again and again, I keep telling you this but you keep ignoring it each time.

Gentlemen, BEHOLD....

Chocolate covered bacon with sprinkles!

No, it's not a straw man because I completely agree. As long as you don't eat more than the daily recommended value, Krispy Kremes and Mars bars are not unhealthy as per the continuum I developed.

Again, I wouldn't eat them. But they would fill me up if there was nothing else.

Krispy Kremes aren't necessarily an unhealthy food. An unhealthy lifestyle would be one where people eat enough Krispy Kremes to exceed their daily values.

You still don't understand the difference between a unhealthy/healthy food and an healthy/unhealthy diet.

Krispy Kremes IS unhealthy, it is also not nutritious either. (remember "nutritious" DOES refer to health.) However it is not necessarily unhealthy to eat Krispy Kremes in your diet.

Apparently you can't understand the difference.

As per the "continuum" you developed virtually no foods can be called unhealthy so long as you can eat them and not surpass your RDA on a serving or has some nutrients in it, like calcium, iron or something. This is not in fact how we evaluate how healthy foods are. I'm sorry but you really have no idea what you're talking about. If all these unhealthy overweight kids understand nutrition as well as you do we're all in deep trouble.

@Snob Goblin wow that looks tasty

If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then educate me. Teach me about the difference between healthy food and a healthy diet.

I don't appreciate the condescension in your posts.

I may seem condescending because I have grown progressively more frustrated and annoyed by your apparently stubbornly ignorant refusal to listen. You seem very resistant to follow the argument from post to post, apparently more concerned with point out perceived logical fallacies (that aren't there) rather than trying to understand the issues.

Talk to Dunning or STFU.

Sure I'll send him an email, but his opinion is not needed to judge the quality of his article. Can you not think for yourself? If Dunning replies with another stunningly ignorant understanding of nutrition will you just hang onto every word for dear life? Dunning has some great podcasts and has written some great articles, but he isn't right about everything, most people aren't.

edit: by the way.. another straw man

See what I mean? You're not even honest or competent enough to follow this discussion properly as far as I'm concerned. That may sound harsh, but this stuff isn't rocket science.

I was pretty clear about it not exceeding the RDA

Thats exactly what I said you said!

You also kept talking about how the cheeseburger was nutritious because it has nutrients in it and well balanced because it has all the food groups covered like bread being grains and pickles being vegetables and so thats why we can't say its unhealthy.

Stop trying to be smart and try and listen to what's going on. Learn about how nutrition actually works.

A well balanced meal does not a McDonalds cheeseburger meal make, no matter how much Dunning might want it to be so.

See what I mean? You're not even honest or competent enough to follow this discussion properly as far as I'm concerned. That may sound harsh, but this stuff isn't rocket science.

I was pretty clear about it not exceeding the RDA

Thats exactly what I said you said!

uh... are you high? You said:

As per the "continuum" you developed virtually no foods can be called unhealthy so long as you can eat them and not surpass your RDA on a serving or has some nutrients in it, like calcium, iron or something.

You asserted that I claimed foods are healthy so as long as they meet two factors: RDA and nutrients. I only see one factor in the above quote.

If you read my earlier post, I said the two factors were RDA and not being harmful.

2 Cheeseburgers a day gets you to the daily reco on over half your vitamins and minerals, gets all your protiens, and barely exceeds your sat fat and sodium guidelines. If you walk to the source that takes care of the fat, and a responsible dinner wraps it up. So in essence, reasonably accompanied, two cheeseburgers is better than one! Excellent!