Skeptic Project

Oh, Ed isn't saying meat is unhealthy. He's just making stupid analogies because he doesn't like being wrong.

He ALSO makes claims about how nutritious a McDonalds cheeseburger is, that is separate from the Super Size Me issue. Now if you're saying what I said about ice cream is a strawman please tell me why its different. What if you substituted cheese in that part of his claim and put in ice cream, would it make it suddenly make no sense? No it makes just as much sense.

If you're saying that there is a difference between the cheese and the ice cream then please explain it, if you can do that I will acknowledge my response to be a strawman otherwise it stands.

So, you're saying he's making a separate argument (McDonalds actually is healthy). Is this really the case? He's certainly bordering on it and sounding foolish; but I'm not so sure he's really arguing that. This is a case of Dunning turning a good argument (Super Size Me had a poor design) into a messy one with unnecessary tangents and additional weak claims.

Of course, ice cream and cheese aren't comparable because ice cream has many more ingredients. At the same time, not all cheeses and ice creams are created equal. Some cheese is worse than others; and some ice cream is worse than others. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but ice cream has calcium because there's milk (cheese in another form) in it. So, you're actually trying to compare cheese with another product that has cheese in it. A better comparison would be ice cream with the hamburger.

Ultimately, the strawman boils down to whether Dunning is actually claiming McDonalds is healthy.

I like meat

Ed, I wasn't talking about eating lard, I was talking about everyday foods, hamburgers included. You're still maintaining, however, that any potential value a cheese burger has is completely negated by the fact it has saturated fat, salt, etc in it. That's totally illogical, the vitamins and minerals don't disappear, they're still there, and being alongside fat doesn't make them stop working or make them less important. Of course, you claim "that's not what I was saying" but then you go and say it all over again, typically with a bad analogy about ice cream hamburgers.

I might as well throw away the banana in my banana split, the ice cream makes the banana actually worthless to me.

So, you're saying he's making a separate argument (McDonalds actually is healthy). Is this really the case? He's certainly bordering on it and sounding foolish; but I'm not so sure he's really arguing that.

Well I would say he is, he said those words and it sounds ridiculous. Im glad you can at least see that he is "sounding foolish".

I don't understand how he can then go on to say that a Big Mac isn't so bad after just trying to make the case that its actually nutritional rich and well rounded by admitting that the BiG Mac is high in salt and so high in sat fat that you only have to eat two to pass your recommended safe levels but somehow miss the fact that this means the food is rather unhealthy.

Of course, ice cream and cheese aren't comparable because ice cream has many more ingredients.

But why does that matter? According to his argument and to a few others here it seems, the fact that the food has good things in it is all we need to conclude that the food must therefore not be unhealthy.

So, all cheese has calcium in it, therefore it can't be unhealthy. Dunning didn't bother looking at what else the burger cheese had in it, simply the fact that it had calcium in it was enough for him to suggest adding to the "well balanced" meal. Similarly, the fact that the burger has protein in it doesn't instantly make it healthy either, its also got very high salt and fat content as well which is something else we need to consider when evaluating how healthy a food is.

Ultimately, the strawman boils down to whether Dunning is actually claiming McDonalds is healthy.

Well no because the argument he makes is self contained in that one paragraph. He makes the case that a McDonalds cheese burger is ""is actually quite a balanced meal"... "rich with just about every nutrient." and then says that adding cheese makes it even more nutritionally rich.

My question is can we still say the same thing by replacing "cheese" with "icecream"? Yes it makes just as much sense. If its a strawman then there has to be a demonstrable difference between the cheese and the ice cream enough TO NOT APPLY TO HIS ARGUMENT. Thats what a strawman is.

I am not concerned with his claim that Super Size Me is overstating how bad McDonalds is for you. It has no bearing on my opinion that McDonalds is unhealthy, how unhealthy is it? Well thats the part that is up for debate.

Im going bowling now, please make sure you make sure you know what I'm actually saying

I thought that food itself isn't inherently bad for you, but moreso in how it's prepared?

Caramel Color wrote;

I need to go to Vegas and hit the tables because I loving knew he'd go to the standard "uh you don't need that much protein" argument

If you claim a cheeseburger is well rounded, and the person you're defending (Dunning at Skeptoid claims it is) what is that based on? You really don't need that much protein, humans require far more vegetables than they require protein and we usually don't get enough. For what he said to be in the least bit accurate where are the vegetables? There is none, so how is what he said in the least bit accurate? Its not, its stupid.

with every post he's slowly blossoming into a giant organic vegan turd

Where have I said that anyone should be vegetarian let alone vegan? Saying that McDonalds is not healthy is somehow now arguing that everyone should be vegan? Saying that a typical "American" diet consists of way too much protein (and salt and fat) and not enough vegetables is somehow arguing we should become vegan? Wow. Do you listen to yourself? I think you need to consult some nutritionists because Im fairly certain they would not claim McDonalds is healthy or a McDonalds cheeseburger is a well rounded meal containing just about every nutrient.

And contrary to what Matt claims I never said anything crazy about organic food either he is just lying about what I said, again, listen to what I'm actually saying.

Bill wrote:

I like meat

I also like McDonalds, I also love Big Macs and fries. When I go there I usually get two Big Macs.

Eric wrote:

You're still maintaining, however, that any potential value a cheese burger has is completely negated by the fact it has saturated fat, salt, etc in it.

No I'm not, its not completely useless, but it isn't healthy either because of the bad stuff in it. I know you seem to really want me to be be saying something crazy but I'm really not. I'm saying how healthy a food is is not based on one single factor. Fruit Loops isn't necessarily good for you just because its had vitamins added to it. A meat product isn't necessarily good for you just because its got protein in it. A cheese product isn't necessarily good for you just because its got calcium in it. Even a vegetable product also isn't necessarily good for you if someone's deep fried it and covered it in batter.

As Alton said.... "Of course, ice cream and cheese aren't comparable because ice cream has many more ingredients. ".... exactly my point. How do we know how healthy ice cream or cheese is? We don't just go "oh its got calcium and thats good for bones and teeth" and decide that therefore it must be healthy. We look how much other stuff its got in it. If its got high salt levels, high fat and/or synthetic additives we know are bad, then this can outweigh any benefit the food may contain.

All I said is that McDonalds is not actually healthy and for some reason this is being hotly contested by certain people here. Matt I don't count since he is just trolling, but the Skeptoid article is interesting since he is actually arguing that a McDonalds cheeseburger is a well rounded meal containing just about every nutrient.

Aaron wrote:

Preparing food in certain ways can make it less healthy. The heating of many vegetables causes them to lose nutrients;

Aaron you're the closest to actually agreeing with me it seems.

Yes cooking does cause some foods to loose nutrients, not always though. Cooking can help make nutrients easier for the body to process in the case of some vegetables more than others, it can also help fibre become more soluble, it can also help us eat more (like spinach cooked vs raw).

Its kind of irrelevant except the guy is agreeing with me on meat and fast foods consumption, but here's a good video on why raw foodism doesn't make much sense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKKvmFZBALo

Other things such as salt, oil, and fat are inherently bad in high amounts and as far as I know cannot be improved through preparation.

That's correct. I mean we need salt, its essential, but we usually get way too much in our diets. We also need fat, we need to consume a certain amount of calories. You have all these diets about watching your calories, I knew someone who was anorexic that thought of calories as if it was an actual thing, like fat, rather than just a measurement of energy. So in her mind any calories was bad.

All my point is, which you'd have thought would be pretty damn clear, is that while McDonalds Big Mac contains calcium, protein and and other things the fact that it also contains very high amounts of salt, very high saturated fat means its not a healthy meal, in fact its unhealthy. You'd probably live longer on it than if you just ate a lettuce leaf because it has more energy, but we're talking nutrition here.

The next argument is regarding Skeptoids claim that a McDonalds cheeseburger is a well rounded meal with just about every nutrient and acting like adding burger cheese makes it even better because that contains calcium. If this is what obese people believe this is why we have such a problem with obesity today. If you're obese you should not be eating at McDonalds.

McDonalds is not causing fat, unhealthy people, the mentality of people is. Its the mentality that Skeptoid in that one paragraph and in the rest of the article tried to justify while simultaneously proving itself wrong but not noticing. McDonalds is not healthy, it is not a well balanced meal. Eat McDonalds, enjoy it, but don't kid yourself its a great source of nutrients when you're chomping down on your Big Mac. When you're eating those chips don't think you're eating chips, which is potato, which is good for you, therefore you're eating something healthy. Everyone should know that McDonalds isn't good for you, the same way everyone should know that eating Ben and Jerry's chocolate chip ice cream isn't good for you. Someone like Skeptoid telling them that actually since the chocolate chips and the ice cream contain calcium its good is sending a bad message and further continuing this ignorant mentality on how people see nutrition.

You CAN be a healthy, fit person while still eating meat, not eating organic, cooking your food, not starving yourself and not going on some crazy specific diet and you can even eat fast food like McDonalds once and a while. --- It simply relies on people knowing how their metabolism functions and what actions will speed it up and slow it down, understanding HOW to eat to make sure you're shrinking or maintaining your stomach size so you don't feel hungry when you don't need food, generally eating a well rounded diet that nutritionists and the scientific literature shows us is the healthiest - lots of vegetables and specifically dark green leafy vegetables seems to be very good (though not so much foods like the almost nutritionally void white potato and iceberg lettuce), fruit, less processed foods the better (though frozen and cooked is fine, I'm referring more to additives, supplements, wholemeal and wholewheat rather than "white" etc), cutting down your salt consumption and get a good amount of exercise.

Seriously some of you seem to really want me to be saying something extreme here, but I'm really not.

So what did I say about organic food?

You'll never answer, because you know I never said anything crazy. I just said I'd rather eat a chicken that is free range and eats well rather than one that is a battery hen or I'd rather eat vegetables and fruit that didn't have pesticides on it rather than vegetables that did have pesticides on them - IN A PERFECT WORLD. I don't even buy the stuff.

What do you think I said? You'll never say, because you're an idiot lying troll.

Everyone may have assumed I was saying something extreme because you knee jerked into assuming I was saying something I wasn't.

Eventually Edward understood what I was saying, maybe you missed that part.

Fruit and vegetables that haven't been sprayed with pesticides is preferable in an ideal world. Healthy free range chickens is preferable than battery hens in an ideal world. We don't live in an ideal world, it isn't sustainable and I don't eat it myself.

And I fail as usual because you say I fail, yea great argument. Oh wait, are you trolling or is this a real opinion again? I can't tell.

Oh I see, as usual your words are everyone else's fault. So you didn't say organic food tastes better, huh? Am I lying about that?

What happened to all of your moral outrage and calling me a liar?

What a fucking turd.

So you didn't say organic food tastes better, huh? Am I lying about that?

I'm pretty sure I didn't, got a quote? No, you're just going off your own stupid memory that doesn't remember how the thread went. And even if I really believed what you said I believed, why don't I say I believe it now? And if I don't believe it now, what relevance is it? You seem to bring it up in every discussion as if to claim I believe crazy things about organic food, well, I don't, you're a liar since I've told you before.

What happened to all of your moral outrage and calling me a liar?

You ARE a liar, you keep pretending Im saying something I'm not constantly while claiming Im using strawmen.

Such as:

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"Blah blah blah food woo blah blah blah anti-business woo blah blah blah."
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What have I said that is anti-business?

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"Oooooh, its "dangerous" to let people make decisions for themselves now."
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I didn't say that at all, how does that response follow from anything I said?

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YOUD BE ABLE TO READ HIS MIND IF YOU WERENT POISONING YOURSELF WITH PROCESSED CHEESE IT BLOCKS THE PINEAL GLAND
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Do I really even need to provide commentary on this one?

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Healthy means over priced bullshit from Whole Foods I think.
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What gave you this impression in what I said?

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You're conflating meat with lard.
Typical fail from Ed.
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No I wasn't, this is less of a strawman more just stupidity of not understanding what I'm talking about.

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GUYS FRUIT HAS SUGAR IN IT
THAT MEANS ITS AS UNHEALTHY AS A CANDY BAR
DONT EAT FRUIT
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Again more strawman. But you probably honestly don't even understand why this one is, right?

I also noticed you claimed:

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"I don't need to explain what's healthy about a cheeseburger from McDonalds. Brian Dunning already did so for me"
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Dunning, as I have been discussing, for pages now, IS saying that McDonalds hamburger is healthy because its "actually quite a balanced meal, rich with just about every nutrient". That if you add the burger cheese "it even contains all four food groups" and is an "excellent sources of protein, calcium, and iron"

Yet you then say later on...

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I never, ever said McDonalds is a healthy choice
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Not that I think you'll address any of this and have a discussion like a normal fucking person.

I do wonder what you mean when you say McDonalds is not a healthy choice. Wait, does that mean its not healthy for some reason?

Free Range is used and applied only when the chicken (animal for this case) has a view of the outside world, I'm pretty sure.

Even if the chicken can go outside, it won't, because it's quite happy staying inside and pecking at food until it's killed for food.

I like my food coming from farms that properly manage their food with modern pesticides. Hell, they can genetically modify the plants to produce the pesticides themselves for I care.

Stop believing in WOO....

Agreed about freerange being a joke, but stress is an important factor. I assumed Ed meant the caged, crowded hens that have no room to move.

I'm pretty sure research has shown that stress affects meat quality and egg production.