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Forum - Eating right? What the hell is that? [ Conspiracy theory, Ed said so! ] - Page 6

Tags: who added all these stupid tags?, to do, Snob Goblin is a muncher of sorts, Ed is a huge floppy pussy, fast food nyom nyom, I FUCKIN LOVE CORN DOGS, food, health woo, chemical fallacy, fathead, protein, diets, proper eating, Ed has a problem with this post - surprise!, bring the ridiculous tags!, Anything that disagrees with Ed is a CT, Fuck not again, WE ARE OMNIVEROUS, low-carb, Gary Taubes, Every thread Ed touches turns to shit, hypothesis, OMG CHEEZBURGERS ARE AWESOME, STARCH IS FOR IRONING CLOTHES NOT FOOD :), STARCH IS ALSO A GLUE FOR PAPER PRODUCTS NOT FOOD :), Ed is an intellectual midget [ Add Tags ]

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EdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:31
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

Because I find you annoying and hopelessly full of yourself

If we were arguing about this in person there's no way you could think that, you sound like a rude pretentious know-it all based on your posts to me, but maybe you aren't that way either. I only got pissed off when I post an article and then Rox said she didn't read it but still says Freedhoff agrees with the basic point when he didn't. Low carb is not just what Taubes is saying, its extremely limited and ignorant of what Freedhoff is saying to suggest that being low carb friendly means you must therefore agree with Taubes' underlying theory. That is also what got me frustrated. Why would I should arrogant ? Maybe because I'm already assuming I'm going to get the kind of stupid arguments and beliefs about food that I got on the McDonalds thread, which again I have to point out people were making completely contradictory claims to what Taubes says.

 

He does say theres something interesting in the basic theory

That would be a very superficial reading of what he wrote. I don't know why I have to keep repeating this, advocating low carb can mean very different things. Freedhoff qualifies what he means when he says he agrees partly with Taubes, saying he agrees "that we eat way too many carbs, that they in turn impact on our weights, and that weight-wise exercise isn't much to write home about". But that is only a small part of what Taubes is talking about and frankly irrelevant.

 

Your use of sources was juvenile and in no way fulfilling,

You assumed for some reason I was using it to prove something I wasn't, not my fault.

which is why everyone gets upset when you called them CTers.

They should not use arguments CTers use, it only made me think the issue was more black and white than it was.

But maybe next time I just wont get involved when you get into discussions with people whether I agree with you or not.

If you want to criticise me please do, if I'm wrong I want to know about it. You just seem to be extremely pedantic for no reason other than you want to argue and you're not fair about it when criticising others here.

Because I find you annoying and hopelessly full of yourself until there are enough sharp criticisms for you to start playing victim

When has that happened before? I'm still just as right in the McDonalds thread. Why was it I got so pissed off there? Because of how ridiculous the responses were.

Sure, everyone else trolls you badly and they don't make good arguments 90% of the time

I'll take this as a compliment, even though it wasn't intended.

#151 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:37
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Kaiser is a pretentious know-it-all, but he's a likeable pretentious know-it-all and he's always able to explain his position without being an insufferable dbag. I rarely agree with the guy, but I can at least understand his positions.

That's the difference between a likeable pretentious know-it-all like Kaiser and an unlikeable pretentious know-it-all like Ed.

#152 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:37
(0)
 

Level: 0

i posted something that doesn't show?

#153 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:39
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

You're right, I am a pretentious know it all. But then again, I actually work with questions of research, argumentation, and reason in my daily life. Thing is, your arguments were shit and I treat other people much better because, when Im in debates with them, they aren't annoying pricks. I'm being pedantic because thats what your level of argumentation deserves. And you're not "as right" here. You created a false dichotomy in the argument. You are only right in so far as you can command what the landscape looks like. I happen to think the mainstream view is humorously simplistic and Freedhoff seems to likewise apprehend this trend. I think there are some pretty clear metabolic mechanisms that support the mainstream view, but there are likewise huge questions and holes in our understanding that mandate careful analysis. You really should stop speaking for others and maybe read more carefully. Maybe then you wouldnt have engaged in such a superficial reading of my post here and assumed I supported Taubes' work.

#154 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:40
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

@freeflyer

its a glitch whenever a thread runs over to page 6. repost it maybe?

#155 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:42
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

Instead of pointing out actual things wrong with what I said, you mention a blog post, where in the first sentence the doctor agrees with low-carb dieting,

You have the timeline messed up. Freeflyer mentioned a critical review of Taubes in Skeptic Magazine, thats why I talked about Taubes in my opening post here and why in my second I posted a link to an expert criticising him. Taubes is also featured as an expert in Fat Head, which you were so strongly endorsing you provided many different ways so see it including a torrent to download it.

and then proceed to fuck up the thread by dragging everyone who doesn't view you as gospel through the mud.

If you had not told me you only read a paragraph or two but still insisted that he agrees with Taubes' basic theory anyway so you don't have to, which as I said requires a VERY superficial reading and interpretation, I would not have got pissed off with you.

#156 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:43
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

That's the difference between a likeable pretentious know-it-all like Kaiser and an unlikeable pretentious know-it-all like Ed.

Thats only because you think he agrees with you, Matt. I challenge you on things like fast food.

#157 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:44
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

List of things I agree with Kaiser about:

1) Conspiracy theories are stupid.
2) Zeitgeist is stupid.
3) Ed is an insufferable dbag.
4) Kaiser's girlfriend has a tasty looking crotch.

Other than that, I can't think of anything. And yet we never, ever go at each other in the same way people go after you Ed. You should really think about why that is.

#158 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:45
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

I know why it is, Matt, because I didn't let it go on the McDonalds thread and I'm easy to troll.

#159 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:45
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

matt and i openly disagree on pretty much everything. Try again, asshat.

#160 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:45
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

I know why it is, Matt, because I didn't let it go on the McDonalds thread and I'm easy to troll.

Wrong answer.

#161 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:52
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

And you're not "as right" here. You created a false dichotomy in the argument. You are only right in so far as you can command what the landscape looks like.

That was actually a typo I corrected, I am not as right here as I was on that thread. The issue is not as black and white here I said that before. In the McDonalds thread I really was right which is why I posted lots of studies and sources and I was given nothing except stubborn denials that McDonalds was not a healthy nutritionally rich well balanced food.

I happen to think the mainstream view is humorously simplistic

Me too, but you never really care about finding out what I really think, I imagine you like to read into my posts and imagine I believe all kinds of things.

You really should stop speaking for others and maybe read more carefully.

Maybe I should, but maybe you should too. If you did you'd know that Freedhoff does not agree with Taubes on any level other than ..."we eat way too many carbs, that they in turn impact on our weights, and that weight-wise exercise isn't much to write home about"... but as has been said so many times before, a very superficial simplistic understanding of what Taubes is saying.

matt and i openly disagree on pretty much everything. Try again, asshat.

So its gotten to this point I see.. well I have better things to do than just play this pointless game of insult flinging. I will say that I think Matt thinks you're agreeing with him when you insult and attack me, which is my point, but I'm sure you don't really care what I actually meant you'll just pretend I believe something else anyway. I want to get to the truth but you want to argue for the sake of argument, I have no time for that and that kind of thing pisses me off to no end. Matt loves to say I am wrong about things, I don't mind if I'm wrong if I really am which shows he just wants to argue as well. Since I have obviously run out of anyone saying anything of substance to me including yourself I will see if freeflyer injects some interesting discussion.

@Rox I suggest you read that JREF thread from Harriet Hall on cholesterol and heart disease. As I said in my post I would like to see if anything has changed now and what she might think of some of those studies Kepp provided.

#162 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:55
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Translation: Ed's wrong and rather than admit it he's going to lurk and hope freeflyer makes better points than he does.

#163 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:56
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

You argued like a ninth grader. Get over it. What you "believe" is of no importance because youre utterly deficient in expressing such matters effectively. Now let this discussion get back on track. There are people like domkato with actual, interesting sources to link.

#164 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:57
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

Hey Kaiser, I did actually link to people that provided sources you ask for. Just to make that point in case anyone wants to go back and check. I wonder why kepp had such a different reaction to my post than you did, I guess he's just stupid.

#165 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 12:58
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

I thought you had better things to do.

#166 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 13:01
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

@Matt: Since I'm sure Kaiser wont bother to go look at those links I posted I can probably leave it here

#167 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 13:02
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Autism Man: Able to ruin threads in a single bound.

#168 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 13:03
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v63/n8/abs/ejcn20094a.html</p>

The "paleolithic diet" has been pretty popular recently, and it relies on an increased dependence upon meat rather than carbohydrates. I don't know if anyone else can access the full article, but there is a summary of the results on the abstract page. I'm sure a discussion of the metabolic pathways in the full article, but I have to hop on my university proxy to get at it. Anyway, I suggest looking at the paleolithic diet as a possible testing ground for competing views. Its rather new science, but interesting none the less.

EDIT: I'd also call attention to the conclusions section regarding weight loss.

#169 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Real RoxettePosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 13:16
(0)
 

There ARE more sluts in public schools. Shut up and let me explain.

Level: 8
CS Original

@Ed, I've been reading it throughout the night, while doing other stuff.

#170 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 13:16
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Also, I'm reading this article and its totally available as PDF. Here's the introduction and I recommend it as it really gets at this issue from an interesting angle.

Results of several recent studies show that high-protein, low-carbohydrate weight loss diets indeed
have their benefits. However, agencies such as the American Heart Association (AHA) have some
concerns about possible health risks. The purpose of this review is to evaluate the scientific validity
of AHA Nutrition Committee´s statement on dietary protein and weight reduction (St. Jeor ST et al.
Circulation 2001;104:1869-1874), which states: “Individuals who follow these [high-protein] diets
are risk for… potential cardiac, renal, bone, and liver abnormalities overall.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-1-1-45.pdf</p>

Can't vouch for its rigor yet, but its easy reading.

EDIT: Relevant section here

For example, Butterfield has shown
that feeding as much as 2 g protein/kg/day to
men running 5 or 10 miles per day at 65% to
75% of their VO2max is insufficient to maintain
nitrogen balance when energy intake is
inadequate by as little as 100 kcal/day.30 Thus,
when trying to lose weight, it is important to
keep protein levels moderately high. The
reduction in calories needed to lose weight
should be at the expense of saturated fats and
carbohydrates, not protein.

Essentially, calories must be reduced, but calories come from many different sources. There is the suggestion that limiting carbohydrates and saturated fats are critical, but reducing protein intake can be adverse to health (which is specifically outlined throughout the rest of the article). Cutting calories is supported, but so is cutting carbohydrates and saturated fats. Seems logically sound, and theres some convincing evidence that keeping protein high has some health benefits. I'll poke around a little more tonight.

#171 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 13:18
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Reading is for homos.

#172 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 14:05
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

weight gain = f(genes,calories,carbs,protein,fat)

While this may take into consideration most of the important factors, the placement of them into a mathematical formula seems a bit wrong right now.

Since weight is obviously measured in [kilos, grams, pounds, ounces] then the organisiation of the component parts would have to ammount to the summation on the other side. For me this equation looks unlikley to be correct since calories are measured in kilojoules, a multiplier of thousands would would equal extremely high numbers if all the other components were positive scaled numbers. The only way this would be combatted would be if the genetic value was a ratio based on predetermined scales of genetic energy expenditure. Since there is no value to slip into it based on any measurement system I am aware of this has to be a hypothetical equation.

Edit:

My bad you are just stating its a function of the component parts, rather than saying they are all a top line equation. Assuming that there may be division and subtraction in there this could work out. Though I know of no equation that takes all these into consideration right now ?

The only weight gain/loss equations i keep seeing are a value of energy in and energy out which are extremely oversimplified.

#173 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 14:16
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

I'm just not sure what the relevant value for "genetics" would be. we have units for all other components, but what would we do for genetics? And wouldnt that variable be crazily variable? I think its just a conceptual equation, not a real one.

#174 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 14:18
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

Yeah the only way I can see genetics being in there would be based off a statistical breakdown from researching peoples body mass indexes and food consumption habits, using the data to construct a percentage value system of genetic make up to typical BMI, and then substituting that value of 0-10 or 0.00 - 1.00 into there as a standard average for the individual being calculated.

Thats the only way mathematically I can see it operating. In other words using it as a coefficient.

#175 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 14:23
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original

@Ed prove it

#176 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 14:27
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

@anticultist that would be a stretch, in my view, for that variable. I mean, it would assume linear relationships between genetics and their expression, which isn't the case. Wouldn't a varying coefficient also cause perpetual discrepancies in the equation?

#177 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 14:28
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

Yeah agreed its a stretch, and it could only be used to calculate an average, and would not be a very accurate equation, which is my main problem with the equation in the first place. Its the reason why I think you can not calculate the genetic characteristic to give an accurate weight loss/gain as people are varied in so many ways.

#178 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 15:00
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Why has math failed us!?

#179 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Wolf BirdPosted: Jun 25, 2011 - 16:32
(0)
 

I shoot you dead.

Level: 9
CS Original

I just saw someone on a friend's facebook wall try to claim that raw food (plus wheatgrass juice!) causes cancer to consume itself because 'it needs animal protein to survive'. In this same thread there were accusations of a medical establishment conspiracy to A) cover up the cure for cancer, B) that medicines for less severe conditions CAUSE cancer and C) modern chemicals ALL cause cancer.

#180 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]