Skeptic Project

"If you're gonna keep disagreeing with me on that, then let's start pulling some facts out - because I AM more than capable of doing so."

Kaiser already did that. And your response was basically "maybe so, but I'm still right!"

So I'm afraid that you have yet to demonstrate that you're capable of doing so. The burden of proof lies with you, as you're the one making extraordinary claims.

Something tells me you'll get back to this in the same context that Nanos gets back to building a solar car.

It will be interesting to see you prove how everything we know about socioeconomic theory and history is wrong.

I eagerly await this revelation.

Look, Breton, here is the exact problem I had with your argument, and I stated this once before. You are appropriating a lot of programs and developments and then claiming that via Social Democracy socialism has brought us a great deal of the social reforms we are enjoying today in remarkably different forms. But that is such an amorphous claim that I can LIKEWISE claim that it was liberalism that allowed for these reforms to come about. Again, you've had to make arguments of exclusion by saying that you can't speak for the US so you'll speak for Europe and Australia. But then one can see that socialism's influence in Europe quickly teatered out by about 1948 as the project of reconstruction took off. It would be a mistake to equate reconstruction in Europe with socialism because the administration of money and resources was not based on a socialist ideal but on a very real set of circumstance. But even in Europe you will have to play the game of exclusion because even those countries have not traced an exact trajectory in their political-economic development. After all, it was Britain's Margret Thatcher who helped usher in the neo-Liberalist movement. All this is to say that there is no way for you to speak universally for all these countries considering that Social Democrats have not had a universal influence among these countries. Even the late Tony Judt, author of Post War: Europe's History Since 1945, had to cover the Social Democrat movement by addressing particular scenarios. The link you are not making is the idea that social reform and socialism share an inherently and unique bond with one another. Much like how in the United States we have certain rights that seem to resonate with Utilitarian ideals. Problem is, these rights also extend back further into the Enlightenment. The critical error here is that utilitarianism's directly influence is unclear, but the more general values that are intertwined with it did make their way to the American system of constitutional government. The same, I contend, is true with what you claim are socialist ideals. They are, as they are manifested today, egalitarian in nature and seek to pursue a form of social justice. I further contend that these values made their way into each country that employs them by very distinct and specific circumstances. Socialism is not the only doctrine of thought that promotes state intervention or social reform. And where social democrats did have influence, it was through a system that they did not design and it was one that mandated their compromise from their central ideal of establishing a socialist state.

I think social reforms and welfare state programs are desirable, but I'm not going to appropriate a complicated history of political philosophy and development to aggrandize my position. Reforms have happened under a wide array of government positions (including here in the US where socialism has never had a massive influence in governance). Were there socialists who wanted things like the FDA done? Sure, Sinclair was one of them. Does this mean they get the credit for it and thus proving that socialism is responsible? No, a staunchly non-socialist administration sought to enact these reforms. It appears that Breton's definition of socialism is so absurdly broad that anything can be attributed to it. I'm just here to stay true to the systematic and particular analysis we subject political activity to.

Brenton's definition of socialism is no more based in reality than the teabaggers' definition of socialism.

For teabaggers, socialism is a way to describe everything terrible in the world. For Brenton, socialism is a way to describe everything wonderful in the world.

Both are idiots.

^Lady Gaga compels you!

^the internet is serious business for Beauty Killer. Lady Gaga compels you X2.

Protip: Don't have a Lady Gaga as a avatar and expect people to take you serious.

@Beauty Killer great you identified the source it still doesn't change the problem... Why am I doing this... My avatar is Hannibal Lecter, he's my idol....

I'm going to stop I think your raged enough lol

Protip: Don't say you can play the same game to. It shows your raged.

@Beauty Killer Anyways another collection of dots for you.

Protip: A Pile of shit would be better than your avatar.

@Beauty Killer I'm sure in your realm the media is going to pay attention to Lady Gaga and a collection of dots on its face...

Billll please do everyone a favour.

Matt, I'm so sorry if I didn't achieve getting rage coming out of everyone - that's all I wanted to do!

You can think whatever you want. The fact that I'm not a socialist should give you some idea of how fake this discussion has been. Can I really go from calling Nazi Germany socialist to saying it's a mainspring of progress? ;)

That's right. It's a shame you don't follow me in the social networks cos you'd see right through this. It's part of the reason why I think muertos doesn't really bother getting involved. #justsayin

@Beauty Killer please do the same lol whatever that favor you speak of was meant to be...