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Forum - Being "Green" is self congratulatory bullshit

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Agent MattPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 08:42
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Discuss.

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AKBastardPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 09:03
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I've discovered that you can save over 1,000 gallons of water each year by just pissing in the shower.

I know, I deserve a pat on the back.

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Kaiser FalknerPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 09:09
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HAIL HYDRA

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I'm not sure how it would qualify as self-contradictory unless you exclusively focus on things like the manufacture of lithium batteries or solar panels. Being "green" can certainly entail some fairly straight-forward actions that in no way double back and cause a contradiction.

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Agent MattPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 09:13
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I didn't say self contradictory. I said self congratulatory.

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sorryPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 09:30
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If going "green" saves me money or adds efficiency to my life, then it's not bullshit. It's probably still self-congratulatory; but what isn't?

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Agent MattPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 09:32
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How does it add efficiency to your life?

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AKBastardPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 09:35
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"If going "green" saves me money or adds efficiency to my life, then it's not bullshit. It's probably still self-congratulatory; but what isn't?"

I can see the part about saving money; but I don't understand how, for instance, using a motorless lawnmower that you have to push around the yard like a putz is more efficient than one you can ride.

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sorryPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 09:38
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At the moment, my house is powered via electrical lines. If the power company has problems; if a storm knocks out the lines; or if I don't pay my bill, I'll have a problem on my hands.

If my house is powered by solar panels, I don't have to worry about any of those issues.

(I know solar power is expensive)

#8 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 10:00
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Solar is not efficient.

Next.

#9 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
KeppPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 14:50
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Matt, you make me rethink so many issues lol. I use energy efficient bulbs and green bags that's about as green as I have gotten. Lay it on me.

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sorryPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 15:09
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I can't think of a situation where I would pay more money to be more green.

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Inside JobPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 15:53
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@Snob - If YOU used a push mower, you might have some muscles and a tan!

@Kepp - Green bags are a scam. It is better for the environment if you use plastic bags and then reuse the bags for bin liners.

More to the point, I think a lot of the environmental hysteria is bullstinky but I do think that non-renewable resources should not be frivolously wasted. I try to do what I can i.e. ride a motorbike, turn appliances off at the switch, CFL/LED lightbulbs, carpool whenever possible but I think it is unreasonable for greentards to expect people to go vege for the planet.

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lylenPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 18:21
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Interesting question. I think it's 100% self congratulatory but not 100% bullshit. That doesn't mean the little things you do everyday at home make a big difference or even if everyone did them it would make a huge difference. However it does help some if you feel there's an imperative to not inject too much pollution in the environment. The production end is much more essential to limit pollution compared to the consumer "being green" end, but it seems like the message out there is it's all on the consumer to buy something to be more green and that feeds into the self congratulatory part. Maybe 75% bullshit.

#13 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 18:42
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"Green" seems to be nothing more than a marketing term.

PROVE ME WRONG

#14 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
lylenPosted: Feb 08, 2011 - 19:07
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Yeah, it's a good point. I don't think I can prove you wrong. It's like being environmentally sensitive would be equal to being cheap, not buying anything and re-using. To be really environmentally sensitive you'd have to consciously forego having more than one child. To be "green" you actually have to buy something.

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Sil the ShillPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 01:03
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"PROVE ME WRONG"

BUT LIKE BURDEN OF PROOF LOL

Anyhoo, it's pretty obvious that many companies exploit the whole "Green" thing, so it essentially is nothing more than a marketing term in most cases. There are however, some things that are associated with "Being Green" that I don't have a problem with. Among them, stuff like CFL's, reusable bags, efficient cars (in terms of gasoline use), etc. I think you can take advantage of all those without having to be a self-righteous greeny d-bag. I have a few CFL's in my house and use reusable bags, my car gets pretty good mileage too... I don't think I'm saving the world, but it saves me money. (With the exception of the bags, since bags are free at markets anyways).

I've seen a few stores that have a set aside "Green Section" and it just seems so gimmicky.

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ChrisPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 01:51
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It doesn't matter, HAARP is going to kill us all anyway!

#17 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
lylenPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 02:13
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Another thing I thought about after I posted was what about the "Green" party. If you are a member aren't you called a "green"? Is that a marketing campaign? Or just a mediocre political movement?

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The Burger KingPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 04:36
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

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Green party is a bag of shit. Some benefits would be that homes can be self-sustaining or not rely on the "grid" so much which back a few years ago so many people were complaining how bad our grid needs security if you remember the big black out that happened.

This will create a need for people to get off the "grid", which will create companies to hock their products to the consumer, which will create companies to install and maintain such products. Depending on how you look at, it could save money if mass produced and refined but right now the cost to produce on such a massive scale is to much until consumer demand is raised. Right now I call bullshit in general though but Obama in his state of the Union speech seems to be wanting to push for alternative energy technology and see's a 80% change in alternative technology at around 2024 (I think hat's the right year), so realistically I for see in a few years more households going over to some form or alternative energy that is off the grid.

It benefits the government to have a decentralized energy system which I think may be a reason Obama would support alternative energy. I think if their is other things that can be decentralized like water and things of that nature they would support and do it as well.

Also watch a nice Penn and Teller episode on Recycling you'll see why Green people are so messed up. You got to ask yourself this and the big question is "is their money in it; if their is and it can benefit the consumer then things will happen if not then it won't".

Penn & Teller Bullshit - Recycling Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzLebC0mjCQ

Penn & Teller Bullshit - Recycling Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wS1dv3iat8

Penn & Teller Bullshit - Recycling Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvz-z7CvsYA

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Wolf BirdPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 08:59
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Yeah, since listening to skeptoid I find myself questioning a lot of the 'green' stuff I believed in. I've rejected organic food as being 'green' (though I still buy it as there's a discount organic food store in the area, also has a lot of other stuff, I can get 3-4 weeks of non-perishables stupid cheap there), I think locally produced stuff is case by case and a few other things.

However, I still do reusable bags as much as possible, but it's mainly because when I shop, I just carry everything in the bags that attach to my bike's saddle rack. Any plastic bags I get I also keep to use them for something. And then I bike...don't even have a car. Sometimes it sucks, but it sure keeps me in good physical shape and I don't have to take time out to much exercise on the side since I bike so much. I still do believe in being 'green', so to speak, when possible, but as with all other things, it needs a critical look, as what seems intuitively the better option often isn't when you look at the real data.

But yeah, the self congratulatory horseshit is goddamned annoying. South Park has a good episode about environmental smugness and hybrid cars.

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EdPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 09:18
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Not that Im going to get involved in this thread but since Bill posted Penn & Teller, they aren't always right, they are Global Warming deniers and did an episode pushing that conspiracy theory although they label it "Environmental Hysteria".

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oreolvrsPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 09:59
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@Ed Im an environmentalist they arent global warming denielists in the "enivronmental hysteria" and I love those episodes episode they attack how environmentalists use scare tactics to push agendas and made bad economic decisions and most are a bunch of ill informed hippies that jump on the band wagon because its cool like Zeitgeisters.In fact if you replace enviroment with finance/recession the college professer with Jacque Fresco,The woman in the tree with Peter Joseph(as well as earth day with Zday)and youve got TZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DX3lZ8peBU - P&T Bullshit Environmental hysteria part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ELJt0vUBi4&feature=related - part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz8F6v5NB8I&feature=related - part 3

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/all-this-has-happened-before/ - My rather crappy analysis of the two groups

The Being Green episode is an analysis of the hypocrisy of the carbon credits scheme and how the science is being distorted by both side to salivate the egos and pockets of the rich and others.Jacque and Peter have become the new Al Gore
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWt2Rir8OQk /> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg_jL1Sa6rg - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzk0N0q2QxA&feature=related - Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L55DslqNgVk&feature=related - Part 3

@Wolf Bird yes organic farming is crappy.Not to sound like a Zeitdard but setting your own hydroponic and aeroponic garden either in your house for personal use or even lobby for a community one.Or you could get a recirculating aquaculture sytstem that could help declining fish stocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRVpqaCoF_0 /> With botrh you grow your own fish and food and sell excess for a little bit of cash on the side

#22 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Wolf BirdPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 10:03
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^Except looking at the TZM forums for however long I can stomach it, it seems a LOT of them are for organic farming. WTF?

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The Burger KingPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 13:58
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

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@Ed I believe Recycling was BS before I saw the Penn and Teller episode. I'm watching the episode your talking about about them being "global warming denialist" they haven't denied anything their showing how crazy Green people are.

#24 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
PathfinderPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 16:36
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I honestly do not care for the term "green." There is nothing wrong with trying to be environmentally smart, but the term is pretty much over-used anymore.

Especially when my favorite racing series, the American Le Mans Series, tends to over-rely on the slogan "Global Leader, Green Racing" even though it isn't bringing in sponsors for racing teams or generating much, if any, fan interest. I admire their resolve in bringing in various technologies including various fuels (iso-butanol, for one), hybrid systems, etc, but you can'r soley rely on it to drive your business. That is one reason why NASCAR, even in the struggling times, is still king in American racing circles, unfortunately.

Note: here are some exceptions to what I sai dthough, such as G-Oil coming in, but that's an exception.

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Inside JobPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 17:25
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Billl, the P&T episode on recycling is flawed, particularly their points on job creation & landfill. It is illogical to not recycle non-renewable resources, as we live on a finite planet - that's assuming that you (in general) are not a selfish asshole, in which case, go about your business.

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EdPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 17:29
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@oreolvrs:

Yes I consider Penn and Teller global warming denialists because they prompted various denier meme's on their show.

For example, potholer54 did a whole episode on one of them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU_AtHkB4Ms

Here's a more thorough debunking:
http://www.logicalscience.com/skeptics/bullsheit.html</p>

And btw you referenced this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWt2Rir8OQk

Penn says he wants to say Global Warming is bullshit, but says he is unsure. In the mean time he is ignorant and promoting lots of denier myths while ignoring the scientific consensus. THATS bullshit, as far as Im concerned. He SHOULD be saying denialism is bullshit, he should be saying that believing things without critical thought is a problem even if you're right hence when "greens" talk about climate change but don't understand any of it.

#27 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 17:31
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"that's assuming that you (in general) are not a selfish asshole, in which case, go about your business. "

Sounds good!

#28 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Inside JobPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 17:37
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Ed, P&T are not denialists. They state it in the episode on "Environmental Hysteria". They are pretty much 'agnostic' on the topic and clearly state (i think its right at the end) that they can't call anthropogenic cliamte change bullshit because they aren't sure themselves.

Matt, I threw that one in for you.

#29 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Feb 09, 2011 - 17:40
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Inside Job, please go look at the links I showed. Its clear Penn is some kind of agnostic about it and in the mean time produced a show that promoted a lot of denier myths.

Why is saying they WANT to say GW is bullshit not a bad thing, but if they went on to say they WANT to say evolution or vaccinations are bullshit but are unsure, this is different?

What if they made episode on those subjects threw in a bunch of conspiracy and creationist myths? Would that be acceptable? No. I like Penn and Teller and generally they are usually right but here they were just wrong and got the whole thing backwards. Global Warming isn't bullshit, Global Warming denialism is bullshit. Believing things uncritically has nothing to do with Global Warming, its a totally different issue.

EDIT: To put it another way, Penn in this episode only PROMOTED "bullshit" Global Warming denialism in that show. Showing that people get carried away and take in information uncritically is a great idea for a show on the environment in their format. For example there's parts of an Inconvenient Truth that are sensationalist and Potholer54 (see first link I posted earlier for his channel) has a video on whats wrong with some of the claims that film makes. However after dealing with those things it is necessary to point out that very real scientific consensus and what the science actually says. There's plenty of fun opportunities for a show like Bullshit to point out the outright deception in Global Warming denialism but instead it was wasted and only served to muddy the waters in the denialists favour promoting various meme's they love to keep repeating.

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