Skeptic Project

Thank you for your answers, its not what i asked but...ok.

@globalEliteIntern

Yes there is major difference. I am not a follower, I am an investigator. Don’t mess this up. I am not interesting in producing evidence in favor of no one more than all humans. I am examining the RBE system. Just that. Please don’t ask again, its beyond the subject, I already cleared that out. If you don’t get it stay out of the debate, or keep that out, along with all other that are irrelevant.

The (kind of) relevant issues:

RBE is an economic system not political. Even TVP has no political mechanism (democratic or else). The soviet system had political structure. So, these two, are not the same. We have to distinguish political and economic systems, they are in close relationship but, they are not the same thing.

Moreover there is a great major difference. RBE is based on self sustainable cities. Marxism was not.

A comment for all to think upon and keep in mind.

Ideas are subject to interpretation. If a certain interpretation dominates then it reforms the original idea, even if that interpretation is not accepted by the idea maker. That’s what propaganda is based upon. So nowadays the Marxism theory is many things and the very only saying of the word produces certain thoughts.

RBE is a new idea as an idea can be since there is no such thing as “a completely new idea” because knowledge is built upon knowledge. Don’t mix RBE that much with Marxism. Its not helpful if we are really trying to investigate.

Please, If you are not trying to investigate, just want to point out your opinions, stay out of the debate. I am not asking for opinions.

It is also foolish to believe any idea is wholly new or can be separated from the failures of its predecessors without first coming to terms with those failures. In a sense, if all knowledge is built upon knowledge, then one must verify or defend the knowledge upon which it is based. RBE doesn't get a free pass on the problems that have riddled its predecessors. What is demanded is an adequate and comprehensive defense of the foundational ideas upon which it is built, both explicit and implicit. This means dealing with the issues of human cultural conditioning, human biological predispositions, and political data that has mired previous programs of similar varieties. This glaring lack of defensibility is what results in me terming RBE a "baseless theory" and why I believe that the entire system is intellectually a folly, much less that its practical implementation is woefully absent.

RBE is an economic system not political. Even TVP has no political mechanism (democratic or else). The soviet system had political structure.

And it also had an economic system which sounded surprisingly similar to what Fresco's RBE is about. We'll abolish the current system, go through a "difficult" transition and arrive at some wonderful final stage...and the characteristics of this stage slightly differ, which is negligible considering that both Marxist-Leninists and Zeitgeisters have no idea how to have the transition not turn into a complete mess.

I remember Fresco saying that he got thrown out of a Marxist club, because he attacked their writing. Today you'll get thrown out of TZM, because you attacked their writing.

It's a non-scientific theory promoted by a bunch of guys who discuss advanced Russian powerlifting, but are too stupid to get to the gym.

Direct democracy is garbage.

Next?

@matt please hold yourself. We need arguments not statements. Why is direct democracy garbage, compared with what? what is not garbage? give me an alternative. else go play with something will ya?

The whole RBE premise is just retarded. The idea of monopolizing and centrally planning the US economy because there are poor people in Africa is dumb. They have nothing to do with each other.

The answer to poverty in Africa is the development of Africa just like the answer to poverty in China was the development of China.

What benefit do I get from an RBE? Is it going to make better cars, homes, furniture, tvs, computers, etc.? I don't think so. Fresco wants to ban all style because it is not efficient! Who wants to live in that world!?!

Eliminating profitability and the economy's unit of measurement (money) will make us less efficient. Centrally planning the economy will make it less responsive and less innovative. Relying on volunteers instead of paid workers will reduce production.

I think the world needs to better redistribute wealth to reduce income disparity and pay a basic income so everyone will always have access to a means to survive. We don't need Fresco corralling us into standard issue, small, plastic homes.

You can't graft a "new" economic system onto society and expect it to work. The only economic systems that ever work are the ones that develop organically, not as a result of some pre-planned idea.

Where the idea of a RBE fails is the assumption that it can replace existing systems. It can't. It's an across-the-board, tear-the-wiring-out-and-start-fresh type of approach. That kind of approach NEVER works. It has never worked once in the history of humanity and never will work, because a total across-the-board approach does not rest on anything other than the assumptions of its own ideology. It can't command the support of the actors who will be expected to make it work because there's no track record of success, and nothing to build on.

RBE is a fantasy from start to finish.

@GlobalEliteInter.

The artistic designs of Fresco are the very first thing that annoyed it me. You are right on this absolutely. His concept seems to be against variety (styles as you said). Totally unacceptable.

Your points on the money motivation theory are not accurate. We know that money is not motivation. And that’s obvious if you think a bit. Money have no value, they represent value. So the motivation is what money represents. Mayo studies (Chicago school) and recent MIT studies have produced clear evidence and conclusion. What truly motivates normal people is their need to live a good life, as said: “The best use of money as a motivator is to pay people enough to take the issue of money off the table”. What is astonishing is that above a certain amount, money is limiting efficiency in any task that need cognitive skills, which is to say most works nowadays due to machines. As you said in your last paragraph: “give the people the means to survive”

Regarding your proposition for wealth redistribution, that’s very nice, sure but it is not happening. It’s the entropy in capitalism system. There is no reason to repair capitalism as, as I said, capitalisms axioms are now known to be false. Capitalism is done. We have to think a new way.

@matt, your opinion, no longer interests me.

@Muertos,
Exactly! Very Accurate, that’s the mainly most stupid thing Fresco ever said! Its clear contradiction to his own very words.

Regarding your argument that the RBE never occurred in human history, I believe you are false. Humanity once strove the earth searching for food in small groups, nomads. Once humans (those very nomad groups) found the way to grow food and use animals the stopped moving and settled down. At that point there were no money, and those groups formed villages that were self sustainable. So the moneyless self sustainable city system worked once in the past. That is what RBE is in true, in my opinion, if you remove all other TVP propositions.

Regarding the organicall development of a social system… where… there are quite many self sustained villages around the world, and also many that are moneyless. Current knowledge and technology can provide even the smallest fraction of social organization (a family) with the necessities to self sustain at a minimum point. Food, energy, waste, water, even access to the internet are at grasp. So… it is happening already by it self.

@Falkner regarding: (just saw it)

It is also foolish to believe any idea [...] is woefully absent.

God, m8, I am not that a fluent English speaker… your text is a riddle to me! Don’t know if I get it all, but….anyway.

Nobody said that ideas are new. But criticism in an idea also evolves due to new knowledge. Marx theory is dead as along with all theories that brought that and its criticism also. Lets get our selfs to the new data. Give me arguments not historical evidence of argument existence. Lets get to the arguments.

Take it as a favor request if you may.

Humanity once strove the earth searching for food in small groups, nomads. Once humans (those very nomad groups) found the way to grow food and use animals the stopped moving and settled down. At that point there were no money, and those groups formed villages that were self sustainable.

So that's the proposal? Take human civilization back to caveman times in the name of implementing an RBE.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Even assuming your characterization of early mankind is correct, which I doubt, this isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the workability of the RBE concept in modern society.

It’s the entropy in capitalism system. There is no reason to repair capitalism as, as I said, capitalisms axioms are now known to be false. Capitalism is done. We have to think a new way.

I pretty much agree with the statement that an alternative to capitalism is needed, although you might want to improve your reasoning for it. Nobody here is going to agree with a blank phrase like that.

Nevertheless, a RBE has little to offer for that. There's no system to reward labor, no system to control production and no system to distribute what is produced. It all relies on heavily insecure dogmas like "We will be able to automate everything", "People will be able to logically decide what will be produced" and "We will make all bad behavior disappear through social conditioning".

A new economic system would have to solve these problems, not appeal to some romantic version of humanity that behaves like a huge family. Don't change the people, change the game.

"Regarding your argument that the RBE never occurred in human history, I believe you are false. Humanity once strove the earth searching for food in small groups, nomads. Once humans (those very nomad groups) found the way to grow food and use animals the stopped moving and settled down. At that point there were no money, and those groups formed villages that were self sustainable. So the moneyless self sustainable city system worked once in the past. That is what RBE is in true, in my opinion, if you remove all other TVP propositions."

Self sustainable seems to be a real go-to phrase for an RBE, but it really implies that only your very basic needs will be fulfilled as opposed to the life of plenty which is being thrown around by TVP.

Also, those nomads had neighbours producing different products which they also desired. These products may be more labor intensive, rarer, only available during particular times of year etc. so they needed a means of exchange which was accepted by all the settlements in the area. Money. Granted, money per se as we know it is not necessary, but a type of widely recognised and accepted currency is. This currency will always be needed to facilitate the trade of scarse resources needed to create products and to create incentive for doing the work which noone really wants to do.

I don't understand why people speak in blanket terms like "capitalism." Are there any pure capitalist nations on the planet? And would you want to live in the ones that fit the bill? I wouldn't.

Yes, Somalia. The von Mises Institute praised Somalia for being so free, capitalist, and of course for having the lowest cell phone prices in all of Africa. I don't know any other reason not to move there now!

@GlobalEliteIntern.
Capitalism axiom was that “money increases productivity period”. Since there is a certain point were money stop to increase productivity it means that money do not increase productivity period. This has huge effects in the capitalism theory, the difference might seem tiny but it is located in its very foundations. Its math. We can argue on the effects of that change, but we cannot discuss if that change exists. It exists. Its done. Its known all over. It is admitted by all. Period. No reason to discuss that. I am not debating on this.
I don’t understand why you are saying those things about roads and ect, soviet communism also made such things, they exist even before usa, and also, coins exist less than 10.000, capitalism was established in the late 18th century. It is not flourishing 10.000 years now. You are not accurate. It seems you don’t know what capitalism is and I don’t have time to loose in educating you. Being accurate is essential . if you are not, there is no reason for me to debate with you. Sorry and thanks for your time.

@muertos.
You said that RBE never existed in history and used that as an argument against RBE. I just proved your argument is false. I am not proposing going back in evolution. Just try another argument this one is a false argument, you might be right but you have to prove it using right arguments.
For god shake, use your brain!!!
Please.

@keep
do as you see fit, its not my thread, its not my forum, I am guest here, I said what I need. If you want to be a jester like matt, be my guest.

@CyborJesus,
That’s what I am trying to do and that’s why I am here. I am studying and investigating on a new economic system for my country. I declared that I would like a debate over RBE. I am not an RBE fun neither do I have something to propose to you instead. I am working on it, and I might also fail. Cant know that. Its not an easy issue to communicate a new idea and just ask someone to remove TVP from the RBE system and put there a direct democracy social system. Capitalism, democracy, Marxism, all these are complicated ideas not just apple and boobs.

About labor reward in an RBE system. There is no labor reward in a family. The alienation of the product through large scale social structures is the reason people need reward, because they need to get something of their time. If your product is not scattered in a large scale, if it is inside a family or a community and you can benefit from it, you don’t need a reward, at least not the same kind. Now, if the community can establish a fair living for its members then the need for reward is even more differenced and minimized to something less than a wage. Alternatives such as admition. During the first olympics, much more wealthy times in my opinion, the first price was an olive branch. nothing more. Why did people do it?

@senor dingdong
We are talking about this earth, today. There is already much wealth. We don’t need to destroy everything and start from scratch.TVP automation is future, far away, its fiction, does not concern me.
Nice topic. Indeed the mechanism that will help cities exchange their products is an issue. Major one too. I don’t have an answer on that. Not even a thought. i have to investigate into it. it seems trouble thought.

@Falkner
I proposed you direct democracy as a socio-political system. You are still referring to Marxism based problems. Well.. give me some I don’t know what you mean. List em.