Skeptic Project

>"It's not Fresco, nor Joseph, nor 'The Venus Project'. It's the ideas within, which are so obviously not uniquely Jacque's."<

I don't have the patence to listen to Peter Joseph's radio, so instead I just read all of hist posts at the Zeitgeist forums. Even though he says he is not the leader of the movement, the impression I get is that he is. I remember reading one post where he offhandedly mentioned that he was trying to meet with Hugo Chavez on behalf of the Z Movement. Someone else on the forum asked why he decided to do this without consulting anyone else, I thought it was a good question. If you read the forums, there are lots of things like this that stand out.

You took it as an insult

you assumed i did.

I honestly thought your post was funny, for reasons ill let you figure out.

If anything i complimented you

@Omni:

You're welcome to explain what I'm missing here.

>> I remember reading one post where he offhandedly mentioned that he was trying to meet with Hugo Chavez on behalf of the Z Movement. Someone else on the forum asked why he decided to do this without consulting anyone else, I thought it was a good question. <<
This actually shows why he's really serving as more of a director than a leader at this stage. In the same way anyone who supports the Movement should try to contact and dialogue with any leaders within society at the present time, as I have done with members of Icelandic parliament and will eventually do in my own country (the reasons why I've contacted Icelandic parliamentarians are multi: moving there and they're much easier to get into contact with - it's often as easy as just getting on Facebook) ... he doesn't need to ask permission because meeting Chavez is not a leadership decision nor anything binding on any other person who supports the Movement's direction.

>> I don't understand how you can claim the movement would live through losing its leaders when it cannot organize when it has them.

That doesn't make sense to me. Feel free to explain what I'm missing. <<
What you're missing is that to organize a Movement on a global scale takes time. A lot of time and dedication. And it's really social projects (community gardens, etc,.) that will (in my opinion) need to occur before our presence as a Movement is solidified visibly.
An example might be the 'Earth Hour' event which occurred for 3-4 years before it actually took place on a global scale.

"Why would you skip Peter Joseph's radios?
aside from lack of patience to listen to someones opinion and words"

I disagree with almost everything about the Zeitgeist Movie's and Movement. Why would I want to listen to hours and hours of him talking, I would rather listen to something I like or can learn from.

An idea isn't an organized movement. It isn't even a movement. People have collective ideas all the time that go absolutely nowhere. Look at every fad diet, fad religion, fad whatever.

The idea that a group of people who can't get their asses in gear to organize anything beyond Internet stuff when they actually have leadership (as evidently thin and inept as it is) would suddenly take it upon themselves to do so when the leadership is gone is just ridiculous.

I still have not seen you show why that is an illogical assumption.

@Omni:

No, I'm kinda more interested in you showing why that's an illogical assumption rather than making you feel like a victim again.

how am i a victim?

and from what i've seen, your ego IS inflated sorely, whether you realize it or not.

And, well you don't want to Discuss, you want to Debate, and that alone should be grounds for anyone who thinks levelheadedly to avoid this site

I already answered your question, but you want it handed to you on the proverbial silver platter with the proverbial silver spoon.

@Omni:

"I already answered your question, but you want it handed to you on the proverbial silver platter with the proverbial silver spoon."

If you answered it why am I still asking for it?

I'm not really interested in your analysis of my personality based on a forum exchange. What I am interested in is a specific answer to my question. You haven't provided it, therefore this thread's original position stands.

You can piss and moan about having to hand things to me on a silver platter all you want. Won't change a thing unless you answer.

@Sky

Good point. Ill keep that in mind

@Matt

You can answer your first question using my answer

Peter Joseph is a leader to a degree.

I'm just not buying this whole "we got the answers to save the world, just don't ask simple questions about how we're gonna do it" vibe coming from you.

This is where utopian movements, conspiracies, etc all seem to fall apart. You stand back from all the grand claims and fantastic ideas and ask really simple questions.

And it all just kinda falls flat.

The question I asked you was a very simple question of logic. You danced around it.

Also, the fact that Peter Joseph only becomes a leader when you need him to is very suspect to me.

@Matt:
>> If Peter Joseph was all about saving the human race and creating a utopia, why was his site originally plastered with Ron Paul stuff? <<
Because he used to be a laissez faire free-market advocate. He's only very recently aware of The Venus Project / Technocracy.

>> I'd like a specific reason why it is illogical to assume that a movement that cannot organize with leaders would be able to do so without them. None of this "it will take time" stuff. Omni seems unable to do so, so I was hoping you could. <<
Give me an example of any global organization being able to organize itself to a functional level in under 14 months, and I'll then try to give some researched reasoning as to why the Movement is still in it's organizational stages. I don't think such an organizational feet has ever occurred in such short time - especially one that's based around the advocation of a cultural shift.

A few things about Ron Paul:

Ron Paul is a Creationist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPoCsC8VT9g

He also hangs around with tax protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ai66fLI8Rc /> (see also Freedom to Fascism)

Also supports the truther's "new investigation":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d91a13Yr3oQ

And of course regularly appears on the Alex Jones show.

Matt,

I think Peter Joseph is an incompetent filmmaker that is just a stubborn conspiracy theorist yet pretends to be a skeptic when he really just believes whatever fits his worldview without question or critical examination.

Out of interest, what are Ron Paul's ties to white supremacy groups? I would not be surprised considering how he hangs around with truther's and they have.

Peter himself is clearly anti-fascist. I've been going through archived pages of zeitgeistmovie.com and cannot find any specific references to support for Ron Paul as of yet - which is something I should have checked up on.

So, to amend my above post (without specifically editing it) - it seems that Peter advocated the type of economics espoused by the likes of Ellen Brown more than Ron Paul (and there are some huge differences between the two) - distinguishing him from being a hardcore Ron Paul supporter.

That being said, one's past is not a prerequisite influence on one's future anyway. By experience, I think most of us know that. Just because one might have once been a literal Bible believing Christian does not equate with such a person being an anti-human, blind supporter of government [Romans] (among other things) for the rest of their life.

Just because one person or another was a racist in the past, does not mean we should ignore them based on that alone.

Edit: He definitely did support Ron Paul in the past - http://web.archive.org/web/20071230011257/zeitgeistmovie.com/activism.htm - but I still think it's ridiculous to conclude that because he supported a libertarian candidate in the past that he exemplifies the qualities that candidate has portrayed.