Skeptic Project

Even though I do not betieve in CT B.S. I still think things like this is wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba030UmbkCo&feature=topvideos

I agree with Matt, also I think the TSA worker was more uncomfortable than the kid.

I would have no problem with my daughters getting patted down as long it was by a woman. But if I did have a problem with it, I just wouldn't fly.

^That.

I don't like this video, but I oppose the TSA's new procedures because I don't think there's any evidence that they really make us that much safer. In the absence of a quantifiable increase in their ability to stop terrorists, I think they're causing trauma and inconvenience for no good reason.

So I disagree with Matt that it's definitely a risk reduction. I don't see the risk reduction here. If it's very clear that the risk of terrorism goes down with these invasive procedures, I'd be all for them. But I don't think it's appropriate to abrogate so much of our personal dignity and privacy just on faith.

I also disagree with the pediatrician analogy. At least theoretically people have a relationship with their doctors--and in any event their doctors are legally and ethically bound by confidentiality. No such relationship or safeguards exist on behalf of the TSA. Most of the time you have at least some choice over what doctor you take your kid to, or some control over how that doctor interacts with your kid. There's a give-and-take relationship there. A passenger's relationship with the TSA is not even remotely analogous. There's no give or take. You either let them grope you and turn on the porno scanner, or you don't fly. Simply calling it "the price of flying" doesn't work either--it has to be reasonable in order to have any social good.

I'm not defending this video, but I think there are legitimate criticisms of the TSA procedures without veering into conspiracy theorist territory.

Some people are traumatized by it. I could see a rape or molestation victim having a very severe--and legitimate--problem with something like this.

Part of the reason I oppose this kind of thing is because it's exactly what Al Qaeda wants. Every time they strike--even unsuccessfully--they make the process of flying more miserable for everybody. With every new regulation or search procedure, Osama is cackling in glee. He knows we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. There's a line he's daring us as a society to cross--the line that makes air travel so demanding, unpleasant, traumatic and hassling that we change our lifestyles in order to avoid having to go through it. Every time we do that, Osama wins.

The lure of 72 virgins is strong.

Hmm it seems that they chose her for a pat down even though she was willing to go through the scanner.

Matt, they are psychopathic zealots, but I think their strategy is more nuanced than simply killing people.

They want to make their presence known among us. They want us to change the way we do things to accommodate their sick goals. They want us to think about Osama and the Shoe Bomber every time we go to the airport. Unfortunately they've succeeded.

Yes, they are sick zealots. Yes, they'd love to kill as many Americans as possible, as often as possible. But they also know they can achieve what they see as positive goals without accomplishing that. Their strategy is sophisticated, because, sick and misguided as they clearly are, they're not stupid. Every time TSA gropes a 6-year-old kid, they are taking orders from Osama bin Laden. That bothers me, because we shouldn't allow a murderous religious psychopath like Osama bin Laden to tell us, in America, how to treat our own children.

If I had a 6-year-old daughter I sure as hell wouldn't allow a stranger to grope her like that. But I'm supposed to allow it because that's the way Osama bin Laden wants it? No way. Fuck Osama bin Laden. He's not going to tell me what is or is not acceptable for my kid.

So, why'd they start doing these pat downs?

My point is, why should we have to go through any of this shit? Grope scans or porno scanners, why on earth should we ever decide that either option is even remotely close to acceptable, in the absence of the slightest shred of evidence that it is necessary?

Again--show me that it's necessary, and I'll get over my objections very quickly.

Ask me to accept it on faith, and we have a problem, because we're dancing to Osama's tune. And, having brutally murdered 3,000 of my countrymen, I have a severe problem accepting something simply because Osama bin Laden decides that he wants me to.

Does anyone else have a severe problem with this? I thought we did not negotiate with terrorists, ever, under any circumstances, no way, no how.

Allowing the TSA to grope our kids, or photograph them naked, counts as negotiating with terrorists. The fact that we have a choice between letting TSA molest our kids, or photograph them naked, does not mean that we have to accept this choice as legitimate, because it is not legitimate.

Where am I wrong in thinking this?

Children are not being groped nor are they being photographed naked. If you're willing to look at the situation rationally and without hyperbolic rhetoric, a pat down is not being groped and going through a body scanner is not being photographed naked.

That's where you're wrong. Your rhetoric simply isn't based in reality. Its paranoid, hyperbolic and pejorative.

If there was evidence of sex offenders being employed by TSA to do pat downs, I could understand the concern.

If there was evidence that the images from body scanning software were being taken home and distributed or used as pornography, I could understand the concern.

Neither has happened. I see no reason to think either will happen. In my opinion these are baseless and irrational fears. If these were not baseless and irrational fears, opponents would not need to rely on such emotionally charged rhetoric.

I still disagree with Muertos' premise that OBL or AQ is interested in abstract concepts like freedom and privacy.

The rape victim can choose to go through the body scanner or the rape victim can simply choose not to fly. It isn't like the TSA is hanging out on street corners, randomly asking people to go through body scanners and pat downs.