Skeptic Project

A big topic here in Germany and rest Europe, maybe not so much in the USA yet is the alledged Islamisation of Europe, which really seems to be taking place if you wander through the streets of Berlin, Hamburg, Paris, London, etc.

Do you think the train of thought that is spread by this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrBlCOWbY2Q and similar videos is pure fear-mongery or is there are real danger of the Western nations being passivly conquered by the Islam in the next 50 years through falling European birth-rates compared to more than double as high birth-rates by the Islamic Immigrantes?

By the way, there are also a lot of serious and acadamic books writen about the topic here (in German), its not a topic that is only discussed among xenophobic Catholic Christians...

Is there a real "danger of European countries like Germany, England, France, Belgium, Netherlands and later the USA and Canade becoming Islamic Republics in the next 100 years or is it pure and utter nonsense? If yes, why?

Hmm, I am just a 23 year old, that studies asian studies and religion, but in my research the Islamic World never had a phase of Aufklärung/enlightment like our western world, which lead to science having to validate itself in front of science.
So I often hear from muslim sites, if their believes are attacked by scientific reasoning, that the Korean is already Truth, its the word of God, their is nothing to proof.
On the other hand you have the reaction that many Muslim extremists claim, that the Koran is some kind of scientific revelation, which foresaw alot of scientific discoveries and we are allededgly still catching up with that...
this this site for example: http://www.quranandscience.com/<br /> Thats actually a site many "intellectual" muslims refere to in discussion, I never really checked it for any accuracy but it seems to state all kind of revealtions, that proof that Islam and science are not a contradiction.

Regarding evolution, I know from discussion which this kind of intellectual muslims, that they have the most elaborate internet sites and theories to proof that evolution is a fraud. I think they they, that evolution within one species is possible, but not from monkey to human for example. They also state that modern science like theory of probability for example disproves Darwins theory as impossible. Can not say so how much this represents the "offical" muslim point of view, its just what I got from private conversations and internet research.

Regarding affluence: Here in Germany a big part of the immigrants from turkish or arabian origins is not integrated, can not speak proper German even in the 3. generation, 40% of them in Berlin live from transfer payment(Hartz 4) aka the State, and many young immigrante do not have a graduation. So they are not really affluent and compared to immigrantes from spain, italy, eastern europe, asia uneducated, uncivilised and not willing to integrate (and NO I am not a rightwing or nationalist, I am just stating facts.)

I think the big problem is really that there was not period of enlightment, no french revolution, no renaissance in the islamic world, the message and doctrine is pretty much the same as when Muhammed first introduced it. And apart the spiritual wisdom and beauty of for example Sufi mysticism, in my opinion the real, practiced Islam is more a political, imperialistic movement with a goal of world conquest than a religion.

According to newest studies in religious studies its very likely anyway, that the Islam was founded as a christian sect which worshipped Jesus in the beginning and Muhammed was invented later for propaganda/mythological reasons. The historical authencity of the Prophet is in question... so I ask myself if maybe the Islam was maybe not invented as an religion but as a political ideology in the beginning, disguised as a religion.

After observing the unplanned success of the Harry Potter and Twilight fads, I've speculated about deliberately introducing something like those into Islamic countries. Youngsters in our culture want to read these novels and see the film versions so badly that they even risk defying their parents' prohibitions. This goes to show how powerfully these stories can obsess immature minds. Fundamentalist christians who denounce Harry Potter and Twilight as "satanic" acknowledge the dangers these stories pose to their children's beliefs.

If we could give children in Islamic societies similarly compelling novels with secular messages, they could interfere with Islamic religious indoctrination. Every hour a kid in a Muslim society spends reading a fantasy novel, subtracts an hour he could have spent memorizing the Qur'an and receiving Islamic brainwashing.

It seems like neuroscience has advanced enough by now to shed light on how this obsession mechanism works, and how to apply it towards subverting the transmission of religious beliefs to the next generation.

"Are we still talking about this?

Snopes already beat me to this one:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/demographics.asp</p>

The fear of Islamisation is _fucking stupid_ and I'm sick of hearing about it. Just like Pat Robertson saying they want Sharia law in the US. If they can't get Sharia Law in most countries where there's a majority of Muslims, how in the hell do they plan on doing it anywhere else?"

>>> Ok, that was exactly the answer I was looking for and proves me again, that right now, the most important think for me to learn is critical thinking. I get to easily convinced by strange theories. I am happy that this site is slowly curing me from this disease of believing in stupid stuff. :) Its just so difficult to recognize fear-mongery, alarmists, "Idiots" if you never were teach how to see through them. Some of this stuff you can read in newspapers, hear politicians, journalist and sometimes even scientists talk about it....

"If you fear people taking the Qu'ran literally, I'd take a step back and realize that far more people take the Bible literally and have done far more damage to the scientific community, not Muslims. Any religious person that believes in the literal interpretation of their religious text is almost certainly not going to believe in evolution."

>>> I am not a Christian who tries to prove that Islam is bad and Christianity is good. Even so I am baptized, I am still looking. I consider myself a agnostic, who HOPES that he will someday find evidence for good, if that makes sense. ;)
Anyway, I am well aware of the fact that Christianity as well as Islam had positive as well as negative influence on culture and science. In the end you can never rely credit or blame it on the religion, or for the reason that its not easy to find a definition for religion, on the prophets, scripts, doctrines, because those are always suspect to interpretation and/or abuse by persons with different motivations.

"So, I take it you've never actually looked into this, have you? Christians have setup all kinds of "learning centers", physical buildings, to promote pseudoscience and creationism."

>>> I am aware of that and, even so I am not convinced about Evolution myself, think it is stupid, because they are trying to protect a doctrine and their arguments are rediculous. My religion is truth, I think you should always stay open for new input and always be ready to revise your believes and ideas. I don't think Creationism is the answer, but I also don't think that Darwin will have the last word... but than again, I am not really educated enough, to talk about these matters. :)

Except, not really. Is the entire Middle East like Afghanistan (which isn't even in the Middle East)? No, it's not. In fact, people are often too Eurcentric to realize that it was in invasion of Muslim societies into Europe that helped save ancient Greek (and other) texts, and without them the Renaissance likely would have never happened or taken longer to happen. The way you speak, they should have just burned the ancient texts instead of translating and improving upon them.

>>> Could you elaborate on that? But even so their invasion saved ancient texts, it probably cost the European people alot of lives. But I just recently bought 2 books about the history of the crusades and the wars with the osman empire later. So I will get a better understanding of the military conflicts between West and Islam.

"Algebra, the improvement on the study of light, astronomy, etc. Yeah, exactly the same as Muhammad's day."

>>> I am aware of the important contributions by Muslims to scientific advancement. But I was talking about the Koran and the religious duty/self-definition of a muslim. Again, Its not the fault of the Koran or all the educated/inventive muslims in history, but a big part of todays muslim population in Germany is following a very aggressive, imperialistic, political interpretation of being a Muslim (of course not all German Muslims, but it is the majority and they get harder and harder integrated.)

"That's exactly what Pat Robertson of the 700 Club says. It's stupid, tired, and you're only spreading misinformation. It's no different than when idiots say Atheists want to kill God and destroy morality.

You're using the same reasoning to speak out against Muslims going to the west as Americans use against Mexicans and other South Americans coming to the United States. I hope you realize that."

Yeah, maybe, its just that we have more and more problems with immigrant crimes (violence crimes commited by young man with turkish/arabian background are just disproportional high in Germany), they are extremly rude, aggressiv and violent and the goverment may release as many studies as they want to cover the fact that the integration of arabian/turkish immigrants have failed. Of course, that is more a problem of failed immigration/integration politics on the site of our goverment, but that the cultural background plays a role can not be denied. Most other groups of immigrants are integrated well in the second generation. Alot of people feel stressed about the growing distance between what is told us and what is seen on the streets every day, but if anyone tries to start a debate/question the holy multicultural society our "democracy" shows its true face, like recently happend to Bundesbank board member Thilo Sarrazin. But thats another topic, related to the shame-culture and our historical legacy, that makes it often difficult to discuss topics like immigration without polemic and accusation of being a Neonazi. And in the end Pro/Anti-Immigration, Multikulti or society build on a Christian/occidental culture in Europe is a question of believe and conviction.

My original question, if there is a real danger of Europe being conquered by Islam through "Passiv Invasion" through higher birthrates, which is claimed again and again, was proven wrong. Thanks for that. I am not hear to defend my opinions (there is not much I am convinced of any way ;)), I want to learn and find answers.

PS: I know its a difficult topic and easy to appear as a racist, but the opposite is the case. I study Asian cultures and religion, I am very open and interested in other cultures and have many immigrants as friends. Its just that I witnessed to much random violence and extremly rude behavior inflicted by Arabians/Turkish guys, and in the School/Bus/etc you have to listen to them telling you or other people about how this is soon their country and that they hate us and dont give a shit about our culture, etc. thats just rude and annoying and that are not individual cases.

I think its difficult for us humans so to not point fingers, if you see that again and again groups of Arabian/Turkish youngsters are beating up people, steal their stuff, draw knives if people try to defend themselves, persistently talk Turkish/Arabian in envirmounts were everyone else talks German, don't listen to female teachers, because their religions teaches them to not respect female authority, commit honor killing if their daughter dare to marry a German guy, import Turkish wives from Anatolia for their boys,etc.
The question is just WHY are most of the Africans, East/Southeast Asians, East Europeans, etc integrated in the 2. Generation, but many Turkish/Arabian kids in the 3. Generation still don't speak German, still don't graduate and live of the Government? German gouvernment spends ALOT of money for integration, most German people today are very tolerant and open for a multicultural society, because of our history most people tend to fall the the extrem now and cultivate a kind of Antigerman attitude. They try hard to not even appear slightly nationalistic and tend to welcome immigrants of all kind, but still people see that one group of immigrants just cause problems.
I study Asian studies and have many friends form Korea, Japan, Taiwan. They ALL tell me, they love Germany, but they are afraid of the Arabs/Turkish guys here...

Many people here also don't like that we have more and more areas that are like Parallel Societies, were whole parts of Berlin or other cities have only shops with Turkish stuff, were everyone talks Turkish and German Policemen are not welcome anymore.
What also does not help is, that 2008 the Turkish Premierminster Erdogan visited Germany and hold a Speech for Turkish immigrant in the Köln Arena were he prompted the Turkish immigrants to not integrate, to speak Turkish and cultivate Turkish culture and try to get more involved politically.

So even so I not a lot of Turkish guys that work as lawyers, doctors, academics, etc. which show that its possible, but I can not close my eyes in front of the fact anymore that the majority does not take any offer for immigration, don't respect Germany, its language and culture and is not helping the economie.
And because other immigrant groups don't have the problem it seems, that its a problem of cutlure and religion, which promotes this attitude, because that is what connects the Arabians and Turkish people.

I could only tell you a percentage from my subjective perception, but I am a supporter of Sarrazine, Ex finance senator of Berlin who recently stated his observations about the immigrants in Berlin, which lead to a public witchhunt in the media, because in Germany its a big No No to critize Muslims or immigration.

In all fairness I looked for a english article that is critizing or mocking him, like most mainstream media in Germany, surveys show so, that most people in Germany andf Europe agree with him. So this is froma Islamic News Site:

Article: http://www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-476/_nr-1239/i.html</p>

Quotation:
"He (Sarrazine) fabulated for instance that seventy percent of Turks and ninety percent of Arabs in Berlin were "neither willing nor capable of integration," putting this down to a "mentality" that he called "aggressive and atavistic"."

"According to an Emnid survey (for the Bild tabloid), 51 percent of all Germans agree with Sarrazin's theory that Turks and Arabs are incapable of integrating. And according to a highly slanted television talk show, a whole 81 percent agreed that it was perfectly alright to "put things as drastically as Sarrazin did"."

And yes I probably would agree with his numbers from my own expieriences (even so I know this is 100% subjective and flawed. ;))
What upsets me is not the Muslims or the Arabic culture so, I like Middle eastern countries and their culture. Its the macho culture, aggression and disrespectfulness of young immigrants that is shocking. There is a reason that many Turkish friends of me from Istambul have their own cuss words for the Turkish guys in Germany. They are ashamed of their behavior.
All I ask for is proper German language skills, respect for the German Constitution and culture and the willingness to work.