Skeptic Project

I found a fairly interesting assumption made about the role of science and religion in one of VTV's statements recently:

"Through an RBE, all of these groups would get what they want. The power of religion to rule the lives of others would go away slowly on it's own as science is proven to slowly kill superstition."

Now, in reading this I was instantly reminded of a paper we are working on here at work that's due for publication. I have included here the abstract which hints at something rather interesting about how much scientific progress actually influences people's beliefs not only in the religious but in the paranormal.

"The progress made by the scientific community in the past century has revealed a great deal about the world around us and provided society with a rational, analytic framework to understand the world. However, it is not clear if the progress made by the scientific community has done much to change people’s beliefs in the paranormal. With popular TV programs such as The Ghost Whisperer and UFO Hunters drawing viewers, it is unclear if this is the result of pure entertainment factors, or if there is still a widespread belief in paranormal phenomenon. To date there has not been a systematic gathering of data on popular beliefs about the paranormal, and the question remains to be explored of whether or not there is a convincing trend in the beliefs about the paranormal. Based on IPOLL data searches collected for this paper, there is remarkable trend of changes and continuities of paranormal beliefs. Beliefs in ghosts (25% in 1990 to 32% in 2005), witches (14% in 1990, 21% in 2005) and haunted houses (29% in 1990, 37% in 2001) have all increased in the last decade while beliefs in clairvoyance (26% in 1990 and 2005) and reincarnation (21% in 1990 and 20% in 2005) have remained stable. Excepting paranormal beliefs that are highly related to religious beliefs, such as the existence of souls or the devil (80%), belief in UFOs (50%) is highest among all paranormal beliefs. Our findings suggest that people continuously hold beliefs about paranormal despite the scientific progress made in recent decades."

So the question is, will science really erase irrational behaviors? Although we have seen a great increase in the proliferation of scientific progress here in America, we have not seen an overwhelming fall in people's irrational beliefs in the past decade. Now, the case may be that over the past 1000 years we have seen a decrease, but we have also seen a great deal of individuals clinging to their beliefs and even searching for scientific justification for their beliefs.

Could there ever be a perfectly rational society where scientific knowledge eradicates religion and superstition?

Nazi Germany tried damn hard to stamp out the socioeconomic class system and despite ruling with an iron fist and indoctrinating the youth was unable to do so.

An expertise in any scientific field requires a certain degree of wealth. There are grants and scholarships for college, but not everybody gets them. And regardless of how the education is paid for, it must be paid for in some way to have access to it.

The rich have a better chance of attaining a top tier PhD in chemistry than the poor.

Starting the project with a group of geniuses and a whole bunch of average people probably won't work.

A majority of proficient individuals may be sufficient for it to work. The problem with becoming an expert in science is that it is such a long process. I don't know if it's possible to train children to understand molecular biology, quantum physics, or organic chemistry by the time they graduate high school.

Perhaps the amount of school needed to become proficient is a larger hurdle than attaining the funding.

Now, is it necessary to have such a level of scientific skill for RBE to work? I'll say this: the day the media raises its standards from 10th grade to 4th year college, we'll be in better shape.

"Could there ever be a perfectly rational society where scientific knowledge eradicates religion and superstition?"

No. (edit: Most likely, no. How would I know what we'll do in the future)

But I still think that capitalism promotes superstition and propaganda to a high extent, not only because it's easier to sell to and govern simple people.

Also, UFO landings tend to increase in economic downturns, allowing for the possibility that people are more likely to believe BS when in bad circumstances themselves.

The holy grail RBE would probably even make it worse, as the ludicrous decision making process is based on one decision being right, while the other decisions are wrong, vs. accounting for different beliefs, values, goals and preferences.

When we actually buy into the "everything abundant" theory, what most TZMers tend to do, the discussion might get more interesting, but I'd consider it a waste of time to do so.

My interest to discuss capitalism in a conspiracy/cock picture forum is pretty much the same as my interest in the sexual preferences of Henry Kissinger. Which is, none.

> So the question is, will science really erase irrational behaviors?

Mostly, but only if you actually teach it!

The trend I have noticed over the last few decades in schools is a dumbing down of the teaching of sciences, and thing important, we have swapped maths for painting our toes..

> Could there ever be a perfectly rational society where scientific knowledge
> eradicates religion and superstition?

Yes!

How do I know this, well, I live in a very immigrant populated area, also one which was very religious, and I see that children are being given a better education here than their parents and the result is that very few of them are religious at all.

Now the downside to that is the that community is changing from one where crime was low, to one where crime is going up.. where drunken youths hang out on the street corner and illegal drugs are taking a foothold..

So I'm not entirely sure science is a good thing compared with religion at the end of the day...

> There are people who openly refuse to recieve higher educations

True, and also those incapable as well. (I think I read it something like 10% of any class simply do not have the ability to learn anything much, and no matter what system you throw them in, they still out the other end useless, so why not just accept the fact as early on as you can spot it and let them go and play ball in the park and be happy and out of your hair!)

> I got plenty of my own education paid for based on merit

That can be difficult in many developed countries these days if your a white male with no handicaps or ethnic background to call upon for special privilages... (Which is why we are seeing a rise in the far right of upset angry white males who are fed up with a raw deal when everone else is being given something and they aren't.)

Which is why I'm keen to see more equal rights for everyone, espeically those currently suffering ss the minorities used to suffer themselves. (That also includes now Asians who are now starting to suffer at the hands of other ethnic groups intent on taking as much as they can.)

Which is why I'm keen on seeing if you like equal wealth for all, so no one feels the need to get even, or hopefully the need to have, as they will have plenty. (Though I can imagine there will still be desire to have ever more..)

> "But I still think that capitalism promotes superstition and propaganda to a high
> extent, not only because it's easier to sell to and govern simple people."

Agreed.

An educated customer is not a good customer, as they might not buy your product!

The internet helps to address that balance with many people now talking about shit products companies produce. (its such a shame Ebay and many others (But not all!) no longer allow you to add another comment on the shit product you brought recently..)

I didn't realize New Age had anything to do with science.

Scientific and mathematical thinking runs against the natural processes of the human mind. Lewis Wolpert's book "The Unnatural Nature of Science" sheds some light on the problem. If you've ever tutored someone in scientific or mathematical subjects, as I have (college biology and algebra), who doesn't have the aptitude for them, you'll see why.

As for zealotry, the empirical evidence shows that people have only a weak commitment to religion, and they tend to lose interest in it in developed societies with strong safety nets. Refer to Gregory S. Paul's research:

http://gspaulscienceofreligion.com/</p>

Paul argues that the U.S. remains anomalously religious for a developed country, despite our wealth, because of economic insecurity. He thinks that universal health care, which we did not get from the Obama Administration, would go a long way towards dereligionizing the U.S.