Skeptic Project

First, I am a pacifist--Although not absolutely. I understand the fundamental innocence of humanity, the innate value of life. That every human being, regardless of social and political stature later in life, is born equal, born innocent and pure of all conceived evils. What dispositions one develops contrary to the human condition, over the course of life, is molded into one's fibre despite what one would prefer in an innocent yet knowledgeable state of mind.

The extremely minor group of people to whom I display not the slightest inkling of sympathy (about 1000 people in the United States), I do so understanding very well that by destroying these people we could fulfill multiple objectives critical to improving the human condition (I am a pseudo-utilitarian):

1) Their existence is directly in opposition to our objectives, as our existence is directly in opposition to their objectives:
A) They will not hesitate to employ any political and legal means to hinder our advancement.
B ) They will readily, and without the slightest hesitation, destroy us.
C) They will corrupt and manipulate our image.
D) They will consciously portray us as violent, whether or not we pursue violence--Jared Lee Loughner
2) Their existence is directly detrimental to the well being of every human being:
A) Some of these people have within their grasp the fate of millions if not billions of people--At a mere whim they could toss us all into a state of depravity the likes of which we cannot comprehend.
B ) They have corrupted our institutions of government and social welfare into lackeys in their imperialistic campaigns.
C) They have profited from war crimes--Millions have perished for the sole purpose of increasing their profits.
D) Country, life, god, identity, moral obligations, and the future, are mere words in their vocabulary and play no factor in the decisions they make--Except to manipulate the sheep into supporting their agenda.

Ask yourselves, do you believe they will have this same discussion amongst themselves when they feel their condition of existence is jeopardized by us?

I should also note that I do not believe these things with certainty. I am very well aware of the power of peace and love during social turmoil, as displayed so blatantly by Mahatma Gandhi-But Gandhi did not threaten to destroy the British Empire, he merely struggled for the freedom of a single colony from a single empire. We wish to dispose of countless corporations and nations from existence--To believe that they will merely accept their fate is foolish to say the least. Thousands of Indians perished in the struggle for independence, imagine how many people will perish in the struggle for humanity's independence from the very ideas of nationality and capitalism.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&Itemid=100114&lang=en#350893 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/4/4e25628eb74bfd7a4ca5d1238619d089d0d1e38e/#350893</p>

For exampIe - destroying dams or energy infrastructure wouId be extremeIy effective at deIaying the ecocidaI practices that are murdering our pIanet.

Just a thought. I don't want to participate in vioIence myseIf - but we need it aII and stopping actions that actuaIIy heIps us in the Iong run just because we may happen to not Iike vioIent tactics ourseIves is immature.

This is an above ground movement - but there are underground aspects to any resistance movement.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&Itemid=100114&lang=en#350909 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/4/4e25628eb74bfd7a4ca5d1238619d089d0d1e38e/#350909</p>

I should make it abundantly clear before I continue that I am not comfortable discussing this matter, for I am not a very violent person. But with the recent barrage of atrocity preceded by atrocity, I am weak spirited and it has generated within me a sort of fury which has compelled me to consider this option as a sort of temporary remedy to our ails. I certainly hope that everything I am about to say is utterly wrong.

I must disagree with the statement that violence is a tendency of the uneducated. Since the elite often apply violence to expand their economic and political dominion--I do not consider them uneducated, although perhaps improperly. They apply violence to pursue their objectives and they have succeeded for millenia. I cannot help but believe that I have taken a very twisted and deranged perspective on this issue. But one cannot overlook the fact that violence has in fact assisted them over the centuries and that they are not uneducated.
Yes it will also hurt the family and friends of the individuals to be destroyed. But you must also take into consideration that should these people remain alive the choices they make will hurt many many more people. In fact, the number individuals who would be hurt directly by their actions will well surpass, by many many fold, the individuals who will be hurt indirectly by our actions. Although, I would like to believe that if they even a shard of sympathy in their conscious, they will understand that these people are the epitome of evil, and we have every right to destroy them in the enterprise of preserving the continued existence of human life on this planet in as superior a standard as possible. If they have the gall to mourn the loss of these individuals, then they are as tyrannical as the individuals should perish.

I would love to remove my violent tendencies, but it is becoming awfully difficult; particularly when I observe the treatment of my fellow revolutionaries by their hands. I wonder how the media would react should one of them experience a mere fraction of what we have experienced?

But within the confines of this society, it is of great detriment to us to deny the reality that at least two groups of people exist: The elite, and the masses. For these two groups of people possess two diametrically opposing sets of political and economic interests for which they fight and struggle.

The elite are willing to destroy us to preserve their quality of existence, and we are willing to destroy ourselves so that the elite may preserve their quality of existence. Sounds a bit absurd, but this is essentially what happens in war. One group of economically deprived serfs travels thousands of miles to destroy another group of economically deprived serfs so that the elite may preserve their standard of existence. I believe the time has come for the serfs to destroy the elite so that their standards of existence may improve.

Sounds very similar to Gandhi’s disposition. I support this policy as much as the next rational and pacifist individual, I only wonder how long we continue pursuing this before they release the chlorine gas down Main St. They will not surrender! Nothing short of literally killing them will make them stop killing us. You must understand that by preaching pacifism in this regard you are still advocating murder, but of the masses rather than the elite.

We have not been granted with the opportunity of proving to people that this is possible. For that matter, I do not understand how we can prove to people that this is possible; frankly, I don’t know whether its possible. I haven’t seen any evidence in its favor. I know only that this current system is impossible and this is sufficient for me to support any goddamn fucking revolution set upon the table; since I cannot imagine anything worse than this current organization of social, political and economic systems.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&Itemid=100114&lang=en#350917 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/4/4e25628eb74bfd7a4ca5d1238619d089d0d1e38e/#350917</p>

As a movement, we do not condone violence. BUT we can be willing to accept it may take many different tactics considering our goals & what we are up against. Environmentalism is not necessarily an issue that everyone cares about as much as they should...I personally care a lot, and tend to think most government actions are outright harmful....but regardless, I think the activist Derrick Jensen makes some excellent points about how absurd in retrospect many examples of working within the system can be when the system itself is wrong and oppressive. I agree with Derrick Jensen and the point I think the OP was trying to make.

Civilization has from the beginning devoted itself almost completely to organization and watching the- how do I say this politely? Our survival really does depend on us learning how to take our differences- including violent and nonviolent approaches. Yet these fundamentalists attempt to eradicate this difference, to disallow it, to force all discourse and all action into only one path: theirs. That's incredibly harmful, and of course serves those in power. I have many other problems with the pacifist use of the idea that force is solely the dominion of those in power. It's certainly true that the master uses the tool of violence, but that doesn't mean he owns it.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&Itemid=100114&lang=en#350921 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/4/4e25628eb74bfd7a4ca5d1238619d089d0d1e38e/#350921</p>

We must respect individual violence, since we cannot realy stop it in our midst. When masses try to impulse change, a minority will always be violent (not counting the guaranteed undercover agitators). Maybe they don't know better, maybe they are desperate, doesn't matter. We are not a revolutionary army, so we are not responsible for individual violence among us.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&Itemid=100114&lang=en#351017 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/4/4e25628eb74bfd7a4ca5d1238619d089d0d1e38e/#351017</p>

IMHO , i wouldnt mind if they all were found dead. Alot of these so called elite are made threw thievery and deceit. A majority of them didn't become wealthy in a positive way.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&Itemid=100114&lang=en#351045 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/4/4e25628eb74bfd7a4ca5d1238619d089d0d1e38e/#351045</p>

Violence? To whom? Where are the people who are responsible (MORE RESPONSIBLE) for what has been happening and what will happen if we do nothing? I don't want to hold the organizeable people responsible, but those who organize them. I, myself, don't think change will happen any other way unless these people are confronted face to face.

My interest has shifted today from caring and dedicating energy to topics about reality and science to something along the lines of finding the people responsible....

Anyone who has anything to say about being violence should at least know who is causing the most damage and at least dedicate their own energy to finding them and talking to them personally...

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&Itemid=100114&lang=en#351051 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/4/4e25628eb74bfd7a4ca5d1238619d089d0d1e38e/#351051</p>

Although, I must say, I am extremely surprised that this idea has had such a positive reception. I interpret this as a manifestation of our universal angst and impatience. We do not know what to do, for our individual observations of the general mass has lead us all to essentially the same conclusion: That little hope exists within this context, we doubt that we can awaken them before it is too late.

As one individual has mentioned previously in this thread: Desperation and hopelessness leads to violence. We must merely ask ourselves whether we can justify this violence.

Upon creation I had expected, and, truly, to a much more profound extent, hoped that the bulk would disparage me, raise vehement opposition to what I had proposed. I am not glad that violence is accepted by so many as a legitimate course of action--Regardless of its minor application by a select few in a clandestine fashion.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&limit=20&limitstart=20&Itemid=100114&lang=en#351062 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/7/7d9fe6bd64e91ece60b6c70828d1564433c0d78e/#351062</p>

^That.

Thanks Matt, I was suffering from withdrawal of zeitard craziness. I might report this to the FBI, hmm...

^That's what makes it a bit...frightening.

More bloodlust:

The argument against violence is, nonetheless, an extremely simple one: To not harm others, understanding that by harming another you are harming yourself, for we are one extended family lost in a twisted world.

I, then, attempt to justify violence by raising the argument that by harming a select few we can prevent them from harming many more.

Certainly, it is a bit unrealistic to hunt down 1,000 of what could be the most difficult game in the world. Then again, we are to some extent disposed to pursuing the unrealistic in this movement. I also understand that they will be replaced.

But consider also the following: 1000 need not die before the people realize the motives behind the actions. I suspect that before even the destruction of a dozen, fear shall sink into the loins of the elite and they will realize that an institution has arisen violently disposed to their existence. Their potential destruction will become a factor in their economic formula. They will debate whether they can afford to risk implementing certain economic policies without being destroyed in return.

The destruction of even a handful of the elite will serve a profound symbolic function: That no longer are the people dormant and passive, that no longer will we accept our exploitation and mental corruption; that for so long have our wishes been denied politically, economically and socially that we now seek other mediums to pursue our needs, foremost that of the barrel of a gun. We will no longer subject ourselves to the torment and futility of public and civic display understanding very well that this enterprise is designed well in favor of the established order--Failing dreadfully to fulfill its intended purpose.

Could you really look the children of your victims in the face and tell them that murdering their parent was for the betterment of the world?
If it's the truth, yes.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=230&id=350893&limit=20&limitstart=20&Itemid=100114&lang=en#351123 /> -- Mirror: http://shared.skepticproject.com/citations/7/7d9fe6bd64e91ece60b6c70828d1564433c0d78e/#351123

stp52x's 2044 posts show he's well into true believer zone.

Clearly they are terrorists.

I reported to the FBI.

https://tips.fbi.gov/</p>

I'm sure I could report to other agencies, but this seemed the most logical.

The scariest thing about this is that literally anyone could be seen as a target for someone in this mindset. People who don't believe conspiracy theories, or who openly try to debunk them could be seen as potential targets as well.

I have an aunt (retired) who worked in the Philadelphia field office and I've sent her links to a lot of this stuff already. Homeland Security may already know. But I think the more people that contact them, the better. They do not take it lightly when someone talks about blowing up damns. They call that domestic terrorism. My young friend that was caught up in this CT crap for a while made a comment about a certain federal institution, saying it needed to be "demolished", he meant disbanded or something similar but that one statement brought him a visit from some guys in dark suits. Scared the CT crap right out of him.

Yeah, I love the reference to blowing up dams. Such a great way to convince the sheeple you love them!

I think what we need to do is compile a list of sites to report this sort of stuff too. I'll take that task on if no one else will.

Alexa, what agency did your aunt work for?

List of agencies to report such threats to has been posted: http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forums/topic/where-to-report-terror-threats

The main poster of the bloodlust fantasies lives in Texas. Plano, I believe.

These people are really burying the movement in a hurry. Good call alerting enforcement agencies, we really don't need another oklahoma city or a loughner.

O_O

Yeah, I'm glad I reported this to the FBI. Holy fuck!

Jared Lee Loughner part 2?