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Forum - Eating right? What the hell is that? [ Conspiracy theory, Ed said so! ] - Page 7

Tags: who added all these stupid tags?, to do, Snob Goblin is a muncher of sorts, Ed is a huge floppy pussy, fast food nyom nyom, I FUCKIN LOVE CORN DOGS, food, health woo, chemical fallacy, fathead, protein, diets, proper eating, Ed has a problem with this post - surprise!, bring the ridiculous tags!, Anything that disagrees with Ed is a CT, Fuck not again, WE ARE OMNIVEROUS, low-carb, Gary Taubes, Every thread Ed touches turns to shit, hypothesis, OMG CHEEZBURGERS ARE AWESOME, STARCH IS FOR IRONING CLOTHES NOT FOOD :), STARCH IS ALSO A GLUE FOR PAPER PRODUCTS NOT FOOD :), Ed is an intellectual midget [ Add Tags ]

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The Real RoxettePosted: Jun 26, 2011 - 02:14
(0)
 

There ARE more sluts in public schools. Shut up and let me explain.

Level: 8
CS Original

My hydrocarbons are better than your hydrocarbons.

#181 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Jun 26, 2011 - 10:18
(0)
 

Level: 0

Anticultist, you got it right in your edit. I was trying to put taube's criticism by Hall in a mathematical way. It is not an equation because a methamatical equation on this would be an extremely arduous job to do. There are only guidelines.

#182 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
KeppPosted: Jun 26, 2011 - 12:29
(0)
 

Level: 5
CS Original

This was pretty interesting from the Skeptics Dictionary:
http://www.skepdic.com/news/newsletter55.html#myth71</p>

And this link http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/bunk28.html while highly critical of cholesterol contrarianism had these interesting things to say:

But first let me assert that I agree with the contrarians that there is not a strong body of peer-reviewed published research that shows that a person who eats a low-fat diet is guaranteed to have low cholesterol which will prevent that person from getting atherosclerosis which in turn will prevent that person from getting a heart attack. Nor is there strong evidence that a person who eats a high-fat diet is guaranteed to have high cholesterol and get atherosclerosis and die of a heart attack as a result.

From these facts and a few others we may reasonably conclude a few things. Cholesterol and atherosclerosis are not the only causes of heart disease; having low cholesterol does not mean you are exempt from atherosclerosis or heart disease. Not eating animal fat and cholesterol does not mean you are exempt from atherosclerosis or heart disease. And, eating a diet with a good amount of animal fat and cholesterol does not necessarily mean you are promoting atherosclerosis or heart disease. There are lots of other factors that need to be considered: your past health history and the current state of your health, your family history with cholesterol levels and heart disease, your genetic predisposition to high cholesterol and/or heart disease, do you smoke, are you grossly overweight, do you exercise, an so on.

This is definitely not a black and white issue, and I think it's a great topic to be discussed on a skeptic forum. Regardless of the outcome, questioning the validity of the lipid hypothesis does not = conspiracy theorist or promoter of pseudoscience.

#183 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Omni-SciencePosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 00:10
(0)
 

Ordo Ab Chao.

Level: 8
CS Original

Is it too late for me to spam Naked Spock?

#184 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 06:57
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Yes because now grown ups want to talk about this subject.

#185 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 07:17
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

After reading a few articles, its fairly clear to me that the key debate here is between what are called "hypocaloric high-protein diets" versus "hypocaloric high-carbohydrates" and not between high-caloric diets of either kind. Does anyone disagree with this distinction?

#186 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 09:33
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Level: 0

Kaiser I sort of do.

#187 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 09:52
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Please explain then. Do you believe that caloric intake doesn't matter? You'll have to explain why. In terms of the protein/carbohydrate divide, it appears to me fairly convincing that there is a legitimate scientific inquiry into why protein may not be the place to cut calories. I linked a study a page back thagt talks about the linkages between various health issues and high-protein diets, though id love to hear contrary evidence. But there's an interesting underpinning to all of the "paleolithic diet." However I think the story is largely unfinished.

#188 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 09:57
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Level: 10
CS Original

Just wondering are you talking about what makes us fat or only as an issue related to heart disease? Seems to me they were always different issues.

#189 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 10:23
(0)
 

Level: 0

No I think there's a misunderstanding. I have already pointed out earlier, that the total number of calories is a very important factor in weight loss equation, regardless of how you consume them. If one consumes more calories than required, one will gain weight! However, in my not so great understanding of the subject, the ratio of carb/protein is a major player in lowering and increasing your metabolism due the way carbs affect your insulin levels. Therefore, the AMOUNT of weight one will gain will depend on the ratio. I try to go with C/P/F ratio of 50-30-20 (%) although I have difficulty maintaining it strictly to that and it swings between that and 70-30-10 through out the year.

#190 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Real RoxettePosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 10:41
(0)
 

There ARE more sluts in public schools. Shut up and let me explain.

Level: 8
CS Original

Anyone ever get fat eating just meat?

I mean I know the twinkie guy was brought up, but that's hardly a clinical study at all. A marathon runner who we're taking on their word? As if having a history of being healthy and in shape doesn't also matter? What about people like my uncle who eat thousands of calories a day, drink massive amounts of soda and beer, and still are thin as a rail? I think just talking about calories here is a joke.

#191 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 11:10
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

The metabolic pathway is simple enough. It takes more energy to break down proteins than it does carbohydrates. Thus, if you had hypocaloric high-protein diet, would it not stand to reason that because the digestion of protein actually takes some energy it is, in reality, even "more hypocaloric"? While talking just about calories may in fact be wrong, it is important to be hypocaloric period. I think the question is about what the diet looks like. To that end, there should be a review of the literature that suggest high protein is actually healthy and even necessary. I again suggest reading the article I posted earlier.

#192 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 11:22
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

@ed the study I linked reviews the effects of high protein diets for weight loss. I'm thoroughly convinced that the other discussion is well beyond reach without a far more rigorous undrstanding of metabolic science.

#193 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 11:34
(0)
 

Level: 0

Kaiser, the one about paleolithic diet?

#194 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 11:34
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

I can eat thousands of calories above my suggested daily intake, I have done for years and i simply do not put weight on. I am fidgety and also get a little faint if I dont eat regularly, So i tend to stock up on big meals everytime I eat which usually consist of high protein, rice and I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit. I am not a big fan of sodas or chocolates, so dont eat/drink a lot of them.

But yeah I have put on a stone in weight since I was 19 and that took a lot of eating to do that.

#195 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 11:38
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

@freeflyer. The pdf one that I quoted two sections from

@anticultist. I'm much the same though compounded by distance running. But my bodys resting metabolism is already quite high (hello genetic component)

#196 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 11:42
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

yeah same, there are no males in my fathers side of the family with any weight issues for the 3 or more generations alive, my mothers side is different though. So I have obviously inherited the fathers genes for my metabolism.

#197 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 12:11
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

Just as a thought... you can eat more calories and not gain weight if your metabolism is high (as has been mentioned), conversely if your metabolism is low you can eat much less and put on weight. A lot of women especially think if they starve themselves they will loose weight, its obviously true that starving yourself will make you lose weight but its also not sustainable or healthy and what invariably happens is they then binge when they start eating again. The real problem is when you starve yourself your body lowers your metabolism because it thinks it needs to conserve energy, so when you do eat again you're going to put more weight and more gets stored as fat. That's why these people never end up becoming skinny like they want. This is probably why you'll hear many women talking about how they think they put on weight after just eating a single cake or a burger, much of that is probably psychological but these are the same kind of people that seem to be on this "occasional starvation" diet and so they likely are really seeing more gains than they would normally.

Exercise and resistance training appears to speed up metabolism as your body requires more calories, this is why many highly active individuals and athletes can consume many more calories than the average person. Its not just that they do more exercise to burn it off but rather their body has gotten used to burning that many calories. Mark Phelps the olympic swimmer eats a massive 10,0000 - 12,000 calories a day! And don't imagine that its a low carb diet, as it apparently contains pancakes, toast, pizza and pasta. http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/08/13/the-michael-phelps-diet-dont-try-it-at-home/</p>

Its clear some people have naturally faster metabolism than others and metabolism slows down with age which is the reason why people tend to put more weight on later in life.

Also here's a link to paper dealing with some aspects of Taubes' theories published in 2008 in Obesity Reviews I saw linked in the James Krieger's critique I posted earlier:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/bray-review-of-gcbc.pdf</p>

Concluding remarks:

Although Good Calories, Bad Calories has much useful
information, the part on obesity, at least, needs to be read
and interpreted in the light of the more complete story of
developments in this field. The important contributions
resulting from the discovery that energy expenditure could
be measured using doubly labelled water make non-sense
out of the claims that ‘calories don’t count’. However, the
energy-balance concept does not provide the explanation
for why some people become obese and others do not in the
same food environment. There are many kinds of obesity,
and only some depend on diet composition. Genetic factors
play a role as do the contributions of other environmental
agents. Eating a high-fat diet and drinking sugar- or HFCSsweetened
beverages are two of them. When diet is important,
it may be the combination of fat and fructose (the
deadly duo) that prevents energy balance from occurring.
Regardless of diet, it is a positive energy balance over
months to years that is the sine qua non for obesity. Obese
people clearly eat more than do lean people, and foodintake
records are notoriously unreliable. Underreporting
of food intake is greater in the obese than in normal-weight
people and is worse when the foods are high in fat than
with other macronutrients.

(_ link again to the James Krieger's review I mentioned above http://weightology.net/?p=265)

#198 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 12:30
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

@ed the study I linked reviews the effects of high protein diets for weight loss. I'm thoroughly convinced that the other discussion is well beyond reach without a far more rigorous undrstanding of metabolic science.

Just to clarify, "the other discussion" meaning the relationship of cholesterol to heart disease?

#199 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jun 27, 2011 - 12:39
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Yes, I'm more interested in a question of which hypocaloric diet is healthier for weight loss. Health benefits in general is a question separate in and of themselves and merit much more research, though there is evidence that high protein is essential in some regards and perhaps even more compatable with human physiology. Though that remmains to be proven.

#200 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Real RoxettePosted: Jul 12, 2011 - 04:36
(0)
 

There ARE more sluts in public schools. Shut up and let me explain.

Level: 8
CS Original

@Ed,

In regard to your Twinkie Diet response:

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2010/11/16/the-twinkie-diet/</p>

Now, 173 grams of carbohydrate per day certainly isn’t low, but it’s not high either. Depending on whose figures you use, that’s about half as many carbohydrates as an average American male consumes per day. It’s also at least 1,000 fewer daily calories than an average male consumes. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that Professor Haub lost weight on a “Twinkie Diet” that is actually moderate in carbohydrates and very low in calories. I’d lose weight on that diet, too. (I’d hate it, but I’d lose weight.)

The author of the article lost weight over a month period eating 300g of carbs a day, so is it any surprise if you eat even less you'll still lose weight?

When you consume fewer than 1500 calories and 175 carbohydrates on an average day, it’s not any kind of binge.

So maybe it's not as clear cut as you stated.

#201 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]