Skeptic Project

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=3&id=245112#245134

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CyborgJesus says:
"The big problem of TZM is that nobody has any clue about how to do the transition."

zarathustra [peterjoseph] speaks:

"1) The system will continue to deconstruct, motivating alternative views. The growth economy WILL END. It is simply a matter of time.
2) Either through private acquisition, donation or state sponsorship, a sustainable city system will be contructed. This will serve as a hub for research and expression.
3) Once a survey is finally conducted in a crash course manner, techonolgical unification of all countries will emerge, for the awareness will be understood as the shadows of the failed economic paradigm fade.

We have to start somewhere. One way or another we will move into such a system. The real problem is human values at this time. THIS is the most critical point. Sadly, many dont get this at all. The transtion cannot happen until people know what to transition into."

"State sponsorship, donations, the growth economy system WILL END, for the awareness will be understood as the shadows of the failed economic paradigm fade."

I say:
Where to actually begin with this prophecising bullshit ?

"The transtion cannot happen until people know what to transition into"

I say:

Really zarathustra ?
So when you went to school to study music, did you foresee the transition of you becoming a conspiracy theorist movie maker, and did you wait till you understood everything before you made your movies?

If you didn't then how did the transition of this happen if you did not know where you were going to end up ?

Did you just happen to get there by living and breathing a day at a time, and just making shit up as you went along ?

or did you see the path laid out to becoming an conspiracy theory hall of famer ?

Many questions but it seems that to even get anywhere these days [according to zarathustra] you have to know everything about where you are going and why you are going there before you can get there.

Actions tend to speak louder than words, and in this case Zarathustra's superman and end of god principles have utterly failed him in his examples previously set.

Much much more legendary shitegeist in that thread, and the original post is a good one.

same post, same thread

CyborgJesus says:
"b) Stop the conspiracy stuff
Z1 or "why the world is in debt" is completely irrelevant to the Movement and should be removed.
Answering this idea with "conspiracy was the recruiting tool" is like me (as a guy) answering "don't go to gay clubs to meet girls" with "I'll meet less people!"

zarathustra [peterjoseph] says:
"Do you see anything about "conspiracies" on this website? In my ZM lectures? In our materials"

I say:
wow ! Is this guy fucking kidding or completely full of shit ?!!!!

Very interesting and telling post by Merola.

He says:

No information is bad in and of itself. It is the biased person watching who creates these mental constructs of dismissive arrogance when encountering "controversial" or disagreeable" info.

This is only valid when dealing with statements of opinion. We (or at least I) object to Merola's conspiracy theorizing because he is promoting misstatements and misunderstandings of FACT. What happened on 9/11 is a FACT. Merola acts like many conspiracy theorists who want to claim that the facts are a matter of reasonable disagreement. They aren't. Osama bin Laden did 9/11. The hijackers are dead. There was no controlled demolition. Those are facts. Statements that deliberately do violence to the facts are known as "lies." Why is a person "biased" for thinking that a lie told to them is bad?

As an aside, my favorite overheard comment by mind locked mentalities in this regard is: "I don't believe in Conspiracy Theories." Brainwashing in its highest order. They don't even entertain the idea- perfert for the establishments preservation, btw.

Absolute classic Truther and CT chapter and verse. If you don't believe in CTs you are "brainwashed" and automatically support "the establishment" which is bad and evil. Only those who believe in conspiracy theories are capable of thinking clearly.

At least he didn't use the word "sheeple."

"To me this signifies a level of over compensation due to under achievement"

Well, yeah, the dude dropped out of art school. He has no credentials at all.

The original post he was responding to was pretty insightful, I like that this guy was critical of Fresco and pointed out a problem with the concept of round cities, I haven't heard a practical reason why cities need to be round yet.

Muertos said:

Osama bin Laden did 9/11.

Really? I thought the FBI said 19 other people demolished the World Trade Center. By the way, there's one accepted, published transliteration standard for arabic-to-english translations and it doesn't use an "O" for anything. It's "Usama".

The hijackers are dead.

That's strange, the FBI named 19 people, no fewer than seven of which are still alive and well and protesting their innocence. At least they were protesting it nine years ago when more than fifty people were still talking about it.

There was no controlled demolition.

One and Two World Trade Center, as well as Seven World Trade Center, all collapsed at basically free fall speed. Any structural engineer will tell you that this is impossible without a controlled demolition. Any controlled demolition experts (and there are very few of these companies in the world who will even risk doing it and put the effort into doing it so the list is short and sweet) will tell you that these sorts of demolitions take a lot of time and planning in order to happen properly. They can't be done on the spur of the moment with some Die Hard wannabe running in strapping dynamite to elevator shafts.

Those are facts.

I'm not convinced you know the difference between fact and fables.

Statements that deliberately do violence to the facts are known as "lies." Why is a person "biased" for thinking that a lie told to them is bad?

So the same logic applies to all the lies told by the FBI and other government agencies.

Absolute classic Truther and CT chapter and verse.

What do you mean by "CT"? Are you talking about coincidence theorists? You know the type of people I mean, the type who says there are never any conspiracies, nobody ever does anything sinister or vile, that ever bad thing that happens is a coincidence. I'm sure you've met people like that. They're the type of people who say the "drill" carried out by the United States military chasing phantom planes hypothetically hijacked on the day of the World Trade Center demolition was just a "coincidence". They're the type of people who say Cantor Fitzgerald's offices taking a direct hit by one of the planes is just a "coincidence". They're the type of people who say Larry Silverstein leasing the two towers just seven weeks before they were demolished and his seven billion dollar payout on a two hundred million dollar two month old lease is just a "coincidence". Is that the kind of people you're talking about when you say "CT"? I'm sure we've all had our fill of "coincidence theorists".

anticultist said:

yeah it seems weird centralising the entire process for a whole outer region. If you have to deliver and mass produce everything for an entire cities population from a centralised location, then you forfeit size restrictions. To me it seems like the size will increase on consumer increments, due to storage and wotnot of materials and items.

As I understand it, the "centralizing" is just with respect to computing and communications, really. It's a bit anachronistic, today most people are familiar with peer-to-peer and ad hoc networking, so centralizing in this fashion is pretty much already obsoleted. Jacque Fresco is the first to admit that his ideas will be nothing but burdens to the children of tomorrow (I just don't think he realizes tomorrow is already here). This "mass production" you mention is really a non sequitur. Goods won't be produced in a "mass" fashion, they'll be produced to exactly coincide with demand, not produced in mass quantities and marketed to create the "demand" we're familiar with in the context of "supply and demand" economics.

But weirdly enough it seems like they think that this central hub will ship everything out to the external environment. Which in turn is going to require connect shuttle services of sorts to every location outside the central hub. Is this no different to now except with more technology, and in reverse.

Again this isn't really what Jacque's ideas lead toward. Of course resources will have to be distributed somehow, the more distributed the production facilities are, the less work will be required to distribute the resources produced. Also, "production facilities" or "factories" are bordering on obsolete as well, already. Rapid prototyping machines are evolving rather quickly now. Soon we'll have machines that can print just about any object you presently enjoy, every tool, every toy, every stitch of clothing and who knows, maybe some day even the food you eat and the house you live in. It's not going to be as quick or clean as Star Trek replicators, but the end results will be essentially the same. You input energy and raw materials, punch a button, and a machine spits out the object you desire.

Lets say something goes tits up with the system, like a windows error or whatever, you get me.

That's why redundancy is needed, so when one system fails there are six more behind it ready to take over. Also, it isn't impossible to design a system that simply doesn't fail. We're conditioned to believe otherwise because our present economy relies on cyclical consumption and waste and planned obsolescence.

Then you have thousands of people stuck outside a city all clammering to get what they need from one centralised location, talk about a calamity. Imagine the chaos that would ensue should the cities technology malfunction.

See above for why this point is moot.

Osama bin Laden did 9/11

Really? I thought the FBI said 19 other people demolished the World Trade Center.

Oh boy! Technicalities!

By the way, there's one accepted, published transliteration standard for arabic-to-english translations and it doesn't use an "O" for anything. It's "Usama".

I don't know about this, but I see his name spelled with an O more often, so who gives a fuck really.

That's strange, the FBI named 19 people, no fewer than seven of which are still alive and well and protesting their innocence. At least they were protesting it nine years ago when more than fifty people were still talking about it.

Hahaha still protesting their innocence! Where are they? So the government pulled this off but forgot to kill or pay off the patsies? Those reports from 9 years ago come from newspapers that screwd up because the hijackers had names that were like the arabic equvelent of "John Smith"

One and Two World Trade Center, as well as Seven World Trade Center, all collapsed at basically free fall speed.

No they didn't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLShZOvxVe4

And also it's not "free fall speed", it's free fall acceleration. Since we're getting all technical.

Any structural engineer will tell you that this is impossible without a controlled demolition.

Actually real demolitions don't even collapse at free fall acceleration, so really the whole point is pretty fucking stupid.

these sorts of demolitions take a lot of time and planning in order to happen properly. They can't be done on the spur of the moment with some Die Hard wannabe running in strapping dynamite to elevator shafts.

No doubt the CIA spent months having their agents dressing up as janitors and sneaking tons of explosives into the buiding hidden down their pants.

If you're going to respond could you make a new thread or something? It's getting annoying having 15 page threads that talk about 15 different things.

Here's a clue for you, consensus of Google hits is no way to get to valid information.

Here's a clue for you, don't act like a arrogant douch if you don't know what you're talking about. Free Fall Speed?

PS: Google is not a verb.

PS: No one cares.

Yeah, that little "technicality" called accuracy.

I'm sure when Muertos said "Osama bin Laden did 9/11" what he meant was that OBL was the leader of the 19 people who actualy carried out the tasks. You don't have to get sand in your vagina over that, it's a common way to say things.

And also it's not "free fall speed", it's free fall acceleration. Since we're getting all technical.

This is an interesting tactic, pretend you don't understand what I said so you can pick nits where none exist. Good move!

Here's why you're being a world class douch. You are making a big deal over someone saying "Osama bin Laden did 9/11" as if it is some big difference with saying "Osama Bin Laden was the leader of a group of people, 19 of which carried out the 9/11 attack under his orders." But at the same time you are crying over me correcting the difference between speed and acceleration. Speed and acceleration are not the same thing, but you're going to "pick nits" over someone saying "Osama did 9/11" and not the exact situation? That's an interesting tactic, acting like a fucking idiot.

Yes, all three of those buildings collapsed nearly as fast as they would if they were in free fall. In other words, at the "speed" of free fall.

Yeah near free fall. How long do you think it would take for a building to collapse with no demolition only gravity? 10 minutes in slow motion?

It would have been a trivial feat to crawl around inside those buildings without ever being noticed by the occupants, even if it took months or years.

Explosives don't last for years, they have a shelf life. You ever seen a demolition? They have to tear through the walls and shit just to get the wiring in. Nobody noticed that?

Plautus you do realise you and I are having a conversation about who is right or wrong about A silly old mans vision of a future city that doesn't exist right?

Just checking you know this before we continue on this moot debate.

And about HIJACKING this thread into a 911 one, whats that about ?

Am I to take your avoidance of my initial question, that you do in fact agree with what I said that the discussion about some old farts imaginary city is moot?

Am I to take your avoidance of my initial question, that you do in fact agree with what I said that the discussion about some old farts imaginary city is moot?

If you're asking me if it matters one way or another who's right or wrong about Jacque's circular city ideas, no, it doesn't matter. I just compulsively correct errors. I think Fresco is an artist and a swindler, basically. He's a flim-flam man. A snake oil salesman. Whatever you want to call it, he doesn't have all the answers, he's just very practiced at giving the answers he does have. He's also got a lot of erroneous beliefs, and there's really no need for me to go into those right now.

>> there is one "standard", that's why it's called a "standard" and not "a group of suggestions any of which are equally valid".

And you still failed to name which standard it is. There can be multiple standards for things (called, competing standards). I guess the various transliterations used in books that are based upon different standards, are actually based on nothing, and instead should use your imaginary standard.

Yes, I'm aware standard Arabic doesn't have an "o" sound.

Please, name this standard that's universal.

>> There are three "long" vowel sounds, "A", "I" and "U", the vowel diacritics used to indicate "short" vowels are rarely if ever used, when they are used it's mainly to accommodate speakers of other languages, as decoration on book covers, in some ancient religious texts, children's books, and so on.

In Modern Standard Arabic, sure but levantine arabic actually does have an "o" sound. Various dialects, ones spoken my millions of people, also have the "e" sound and even the "}" (I think in SAMPA) sound.

>> There simply isn't an "O" sound in arabic, and the ONE STANDARD for transliteration from arabic-to-english doesn't use an "O" for anything. It is "Usama".

And I guarantee you'll never name this one standard, because there isn't one standard at all. There are at least a dozen, and about four or five which compete against each other all over the world.

>> It's worth noting that the conspiracy theorists at the FBI spell his name "Usama bin Laden", on their "most wanted" poster: http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm</p>

Yeah, that's based on the standard the library of congress uses =O! Holy shit! Another standard! And guess what, their standard is against what many arabs even use.

I updated my post Plautus, but I figured you wouldn't name it. You can't seem to acknowledge being wrong at all -- typical of conspiracy theorists.